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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 15:02:34 GMT
I've recently been reading a lot of Irish journalists and columnists vis a vis Brexit and I am astonished to see how uniformly pro-Brussels they are. Is that common amongst most people in Ireland? It's not the pro-Europeanness that bothers me, rather the sense that they view the EU as a sort of benign sugar daddy or fairy godmother.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 15:15:32 GMT
I've recently been reading a lot of Irish journalists and columnists vis a vis Brexit and I am astonished to see how uniformly pro-Brussels they are. Is that common amongst most people in Ireland? It's not the pro-Europeanness that bothers me, rather the sense that they view the EU as a sort of benign sugar daddy or fairy godmother. There are a few different reasons. 1) "Cultural cringe". Irish people are notorious for seeking the approval of outsiders. I recently read a reference to this in a novel from the nineteen-twenties, by the priest-novelist Canon Sheehan. James Joyce famously described Irish literature as "the cracked looking glass of a servant". Patrick Kavanagh said the essence of provinciality was someone always seeking the approval of the metropolis. There seems to be something in the Irish character that craves validation from outside. 2) Anti-Britishness. We've spent so long trying to define ourselves as non-British that Europhilism has become a permanent state. 3) Conformity. Many people have commented that the Irish have a powerful conformist streak. This was good (in my view) when they rapidly converted to Christianity, and persisted in Catholicism despite persecution. However, when progressivism became the reigning orthodoxy, they were just as conformist in this. Which leads to 4) Progressivism is anti-national and pro-state. The E.U. ticks both those boxes. Of course, there are practical and financial reasons to be pro-E.U. But honestly, I think they are less influential than the emotional ones.
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Post by kj on Dec 6, 2017 15:16:12 GMT
What's wonderful about the current Border impasse is that even the Anglophile Irish Times and people like Fintan O'Toole are finally waking up to the fact that Britain doesn't give a damn about Ireland. It is encouraging even them to assert Irish independence as a sovereign nation. I sincerely hope that Brexit gives a serious lift to Irish identity and Irish separatism.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 15:24:56 GMT
As for your other question, is pro-Brussels sentiment common in Ireland...very much so. But popular as it is, it's still over-represented amongst the media and cultural and political elites. There's a fair (and, I think, an increasing) level of anti-EU feeling amongst ordinary Irish people. It's hard to gauge its exact extent, though.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 16:22:39 GMT
What's wonderful about the current Border impasse is that even the Anglophile Irish Times and people like Fintan O'Toole are finally waking up to the fact that Britain doesn't give a damn about Ireland. It is encouraging even them to assert Irish independence as a sovereign nation. I sincerely hope that Brexit gives a serious lift to Irish identity and Irish separatism. I think this is a misinterpretation, given that the usual pro-Brussels Irish opinion is to criticise Britain for being insufficiently pro-internationalist, pro-immigration, pro-globalist &c. I hardly see how it is encouraging them to assert Irish independence given that the Irish position on Brexit is to stand by Brussels, regardless of the cost for Ireland.
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 16:36:50 GMT
What's wonderful about the current Border impasse is that even the Anglophile Irish Times and people like Fintan O'Toole are finally waking up to the fact that Britain doesn't give a damn about Ireland. It is encouraging even them to assert Irish independence as a sovereign nation. I sincerely hope that Brexit gives a serious lift to Irish identity and Irish separatism. What is becoming clear is that Brexit will probably be bad news economically for Ireland. There are few fans of the EU here but the Brexit vote , a reassertion of British sovereignty, something we would never dare to do ,is going to affect us even more than the English. I am amused by those who bleat on about Irish sovereignty and Irish vetoes when dealing with perfidious Albion when our real European masters have been pulling the strings for decades. The EU is determined to undermine Brexit and is delighted the Irish are the dupes who automatically assume our national interest equates with that of Brussels. We need to be coldly self interested in this affair. When this is all over we will be still be stuck beside the Brits one of our biggest trading partners and our closest cultural and historical neighbour. The Irish party in London has now been reduced to the DUP who are taking full advantage of England's difficulties unlike the Sinn Fein ostritches who prefer their sacred abstention dogma to take priority over the needs of the nationalist population of Northern Ireland. As for an increase in Irish identity and separatism ... Sadly that's very unlikely to occur. We are all good Europeans now.
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Post by kj on Dec 6, 2017 16:55:48 GMT
I'd rather be hitched to Brussels than London, thanks all the same.
As for all the anti-EU sentiment, I shudder to imagine what economic condition Ireland would be in had we stayed out of the EEC/EU.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 17:01:47 GMT
Why be hitched to either?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 17:02:57 GMT
Why be hitched to either? People argue that we can't survive economically unless we are dependent on the EU or Britain...this could be true, for all I know. It's very hard to tell.
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Post by kj on Dec 6, 2017 17:04:26 GMT
We're a small nation and economy that has benefitted immeasurably by EU membership. Unfortunately, gratitude is not a common trait amongst most human beings. For some "Brussels" now equates with the ninth circle of Hell.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 17:19:06 GMT
We're a small nation and economy that has benefitted immeasurably by EU membership. Unfortunately, gratitude is not a common trait amongst most human beings. For some "Brussels" now equates with the ninth circle of Hell. We've already done the EU a big, big favour in taking a mass of debt on the Irish taxpayer to try to avert a banking meltdown on the continent. Our own survival as a nation comes first to me... if it's at all possible to get out, to escape the EU project, I would be completely in favour of that. The only counter-arguments that count with me are pragmatic counter-arguments.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 17:26:59 GMT
We're a small nation and economy that has benefitted immeasurably by EU membership. Unfortunately, gratitude is not a common trait amongst most human beings. For some "Brussels" now equates with the ninth circle of Hell. Has it really benefited that much? If you look at Actual Individual Consumption, which is a much better measure of prosperity than GDP per capita, then Ireland is the poorest nation in north-western Europe, with the average household having the same standard of living as Italy, despite Italy not having had any economic growth for 17 years. Ireland has the second highest GDP per capita in the EU, but this is due to creative accounting and multi-nationals having their HQs in Ireland. In my experience, most consumer goods in Ireland are much more expensive than Britain. ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/8065733/2-13062017-AP-EN.pdf/edd7c511-ce00-4788-ae99-7d310456d195
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Post by kj on Dec 6, 2017 17:27:35 GMT
We're a small economy that would be in trouble on its own. Britain post-EU will still be in the top six or seven economies in the world; we have no such luxury and we would be in utter economic thrall to the UK.
Also we would lose innumerable jobs that only exist due to our European membership, as well as plenty of other benefits. Overall we still have one of the healthiest economies in the world and for what it's worth we consistently score highly on global quality-of-life rankings. To deny the role EU membership plays in that is madness.
But if people want to fantasise about going back to 1973 Ireland, be my guest by all means.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 17:33:20 GMT
The only argument that really impresses me when it comes to pre-EU Ireland is the level of emigration. It seems fairly clear that people had a reasonable standard of living in the sixties and seventies. Nor did there seem to be a homelessness crisis as today. My father tells me he never saw homeless people when he was growing up.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 17:41:36 GMT
We're a small economy that would be in trouble on its own. Britain post-EU will still be in the top six or seven economies in the world; we have no such luxury and we would be in utter economic thrall to the UK. Also we would lose innumerable jobs that only exist due to our European membership, as well as plenty of other benefits. Overall we still have one of the healthiest economies in the world and for what it's worth we consistently score highly on global quality-of-life rankings. To deny the role EU membership plays in that is madness. But if people want to fantasise about going back to 1973 Ireland, be my guest by all means. How is it that successful, really? www.ft.com/content/dd3a6f1c-6aea-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa?emailId=596de5cd8acb3300044b5bdb&segmentId=13b7e341-ed02-2b53-e8c0-d9cb59be8b3bOnce the EU harmonises Corporation tax, or the US lowers Corporation tax, then the Irish economy will be shafted.
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