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Post by cato on Jul 9, 2018 22:36:20 GMT
Normally at work I avoid bringing up controversies but I do give my opinion if asked. A few days ago two african work colleagues asked me why the British were so evil and hated by everyone. This was after a world cup match involving England.
I couldn't resist asking them did they object to the British abolishing slavery? We then discussed slavery which they basically saw as a 18th/19th century phenomena. I attempted to explain almost every society had slavery although I wasn't brave enough to mention African trade in enslaving weaker tribes and selling them on to Europeans! Viking Dublin had a large slave market in what is modern Temple Bar and Islamic pirates enslaved Irish kidnap victims on occasion too.
One of the guys is an evangelical protestant who combatted my claim that slavery was a normal part of the biblical world by saying it wasn't "really slavery"! The idea that anyone can interpret the bible is hopelessly optimistic."We eventually agreed Pharoh did enslave the Hebrews.
It was a very interesting insight into how two new entrants to Ireland view what is admittedly a shameful phenomena. I was also aware that as a white man I was very vulnerable at any stage to being labelled "racist". Ironically I doubt if two white liberals would have resisted using that label on behalf of the oppressed.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 9, 2018 22:47:44 GMT
Normally at work I avoid bringing up controversies but I do give my opinion if asked. A few days ago two african work colleagues asked me why the British were so evil and hated by everyone. This was after a world cup match involving England. I couldn't resist asking them did they object to the British abolishing slavery? We then discussed slavery which they basically saw as a 18th/19th century phenomena. I attempted to explain almost every society had slavery although I wasn't brave enough to mention African trade in enslaving weaker tribes and selling them on to Europeans! Viking Dublin had a large slave market in what is modern Temple Bar and Islamic pirates enslaved Irish kidnap victims on occasion too. One of the guys is an evangelical protestant who combatted my claim that slavery was a normal part of the biblical world by saying it wasn't "really slavery"! The idea that anyone can interpret the bible is hopelessly optimistic."We eventually agreed Pharoh did enslave the Hebrews. It was a very interesting insight into how two new entrants to Ireland view what is admittedly a shameful phenomena. I was also aware that as a white man I was very vulnerable at any stage to being labelled "racist". Ironically I doubt if two white liberals would have resisted using that label on behalf of the oppressed. Anti-Englishness really bothers me. (And I think anti-Britishness is essentially anti-Englishness.) I don't really doubt for a moment that the Irish would have created an Empire if we had the opportunity. Plenty of Irish people served the British Empire. Speaking of slavery, we all know from the story of St. Patrick that the Irish made slaving raids on Britain when they could. I think we can lament the loss of Gaelic culture, the Famine etc. without demonizing the English. History is a pretty brutal affair all round. |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 8:12:13 GMT
Normally at work I avoid bringing up controversies but I do give my opinion if asked. A few days ago two african work colleagues asked me why the British were so evil and hated by everyone. This was after a world cup match involving England. I couldn't resist asking them did they object to the British abolishing slavery? We then discussed slavery which they basically saw as a 18th/19th century phenomena. I attempted to explain almost every society had slavery although I wasn't brave enough to mention African trade in enslaving weaker tribes and selling them on to Europeans! Viking Dublin had a large slave market in what is modern Temple Bar and Islamic pirates enslaved Irish kidnap victims on occasion too. One of the guys is an evangelical protestant who combatted my claim that slavery was a normal part of the biblical world by saying it wasn't "really slavery"! The idea that anyone can interpret the bible is hopelessly optimistic."We eventually agreed Pharoh did enslave the Hebrews. It was a very interesting insight into how two new entrants to Ireland view what is admittedly a shameful phenomena. I was also aware that as a white man I was very vulnerable at any stage to being labelled "racist". Ironically I doubt if two white liberals would have resisted using that label on behalf of the oppressed. What is more bothersome than such more or less casual unlogic chat is this: somehow there are more dark background areas where the real racist superiority junk can thrive. It can be too easy to dismiss real daily life racism as non existant when you don´t see it yourself (maybe people in Ireland has little more fairness than Sweden in that respect but my guess is that it does appear even so). |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2018 8:30:03 GMT
It can be too easy to dismiss real daily life racism as non existant when you don´t see it yourself (maybe people in Ireland has little more fairness than Sweden in that respect but my guess is that it does appear even so). And it's just as easy to claim "real daily life" racism where it doesn't exist. To be honest, I believe it's virtually non-existent and tremendously exaggerated. (In Ireland, anyway, and I guess the same is true of most Western countries.) Of course, anti-white racism is very much alive in the media, academe and entertainment industries! (I don't mean to contradict you so bluntly, Tomas. This is just something I feel strongly about. The race card is played so widely now, I think we should really demand hard evidence that there is widespread racism in any particular society-- evidence not based on self-reporting or that can reasonably be explained in a different way.) |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 10:05:01 GMT
It can be too easy to dismiss real daily life racism as non existant when you don´t see it yourself (maybe people in Ireland has little more fairness than Sweden in that respect but my guess is that it does appear even so). And it's just as easy to claim "real daily life" racism where it doesn't exist. To be honest, I believe it's virtually non-existent and tremendously exaggerated. (In Ireland, anyway, and I guess the same is true of most Western countries.) Of course, anti-white racism is very much alive in the media, academe and entertainment industries! (I don't mean to contradict you so bluntly, Tomas. This is just something I feel strongly about. The race card is played so widely now, I think we should really demand hard evidence that there is widespread racism in any particular society-- evidence not based on self-reporting or that can reasonably be explained in a different way.) I respect and admire your personal honesty in this tricky and, as you say, 'exaggerated' matter. All the same it´s impossible to calculate quantities and hard evidence when it comes to things like attitudes and looks and language! I don´t want to be part of the exaggeration business of the Left or any other PC-media flaws but nonetheless I rather fail that way than the other in assuming the problem as non existant. Cf. Chesterton "all the exaggerations are right, if they exaggerate the right thing". To just take one piece of evidence (I shrink for doing that because of the sheer nasty nature of it) when I was in Stockholm a few weeks back with two dark skinned ladies (friends) we slided into a popular bar in one of the genuine central parts of town. First thing that happens when looking at the menu upon the wall was one local pub resident raising her voice saying "Oh how dark it got suddenly!" and her male companion following "Yeah, damned dark!". That´s exactly the thing I mean by daily life racism!! In real life, and gotten worse in just the last couple of years. What did I do then? Well, nothing, which would have been a full disgrace if it hadn´t been for the fact that I went a little before my company and thus they (as far as I noticed it) did not actually hear what was said from their relative position just inside close to the door. It was a busy place and I decided in a sudden to let it pass but feeling angry and disappointed to the brim of these typical junk behaviours. If it had been a stronger man hearing that he would have confronted them or given the man a fist knock perhaps. Nota bene it was more than obvious that it was no mistake from where I stood. They WERE addressing my friends provocatively loud and NOT talking about anything else! |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2018 15:28:37 GMT
And it's just as easy to claim "real daily life" racism where it doesn't exist. To be honest, I believe it's virtually non-existent and tremendously exaggerated. (In Ireland, anyway, and I guess the same is true of most Western countries.) Of course, anti-white racism is very much alive in the media, academe and entertainment industries! (I don't mean to contradict you so bluntly, Tomas. This is just something I feel strongly about. The race card is played so widely now, I think we should really demand hard evidence that there is widespread racism in any particular society-- evidence not based on self-reporting or that can reasonably be explained in a different way.) I respect and admire your personal honesty in this tricky and, as you say, 'exaggerated' matter. All the same it´s impossible to calculate quantities and hard evidence when it comes to things like attitudes and looks and language! I don´t want to be part of the exaggeration business of the Left or any other PC-media flaws but nonetheless I rather fail that way than the other in assuming the problem as non existant. Cf. Chesterton "all the exaggerations are right, if they exaggerate the right thing". To just take one piece of evidence (I shrink for doing that because of the sheer nasty nature of it) when I was in Stockholm a few weeks back with two dark skinned ladies (friends) we slided into a popular bar in one of the genuine central parts of town. First thing that happens when looking at the menu upon the wall was one local pub resident raising her voice saying "Oh how dark it got suddenly!" and her male companion following "Yeah, damned dark!". That´s exactly the thing I mean by daily life racism!! In real life, and gotten worse in just the last couple of years. What did I do then? Well, nothing, which would have been a full disgrace if it hadn´t been for the fact that I went a little before my company and thus they (as far as I noticed it) did not actually hear what was said from their relative position just inside close to the door. It was a busy place and I decided in a sudden to let it pass but feeling angry and disappointed to the brim of these typical junk behaviours. If it had been a stronger man hearing that he would have confronted them or given the man a fist knock perhaps. Nota bene it was more than obvious that it was no mistake from where I stood. They WERE addressing my friends provocatively loud and NOT talking about anything else! Well, all I can say is that I've only ever witnessed anything that could be remotely called racist once or twice in my forty years. Perhaps there is a reaction against multiculturalism in Sweden (is it true that the police have ceased to record the ethnicity of people who commit crimes?), but that doesn't excuse an incident such as this. How often have you witnessed such incidents? (By the way, I don't think getting into a bar brawl would have helped anybody!) |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2018 16:02:00 GMT
You've reminded me of the time I heard an Englishman complain about "Irish monkeys" on a train platform in England. (I forget where.) I hadn't said a word so he can hardly have been addressing me.
It didn't bother me in the slightest.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 18:12:27 GMT
Well it can always be toned down of course. But it´s more a defensive position to take than a made-up agenda against non existent straw men. Easiest thing would be to ignore them altogether but in my view that type of rampant insults because of race/skin (even more than in the case for "political" UK anti-Irish antagonism) at least calls for some reaction other than just a shrug. Problem is I don´t have a clue how to actually stop it and failing that an inner disgust makes me, little better than nothing, only an inch aware of their situation who can expect getting such junk splashed into their faces anytime (in this case it was just Providence they didn´t catch it a few meters away). Thing is it happens quite often. Majority of people never does it but the numbers who does has increased and rather badly so. Apart from lesser things that can plausibly be explained away or explained in part by other factors I´ve seen uncountable condenscending looks and heard many rude insulting sweeping phrases of the more consciously nasty brand (admitted this example was not something heard daily BY ME it would still be in the category "ordinary verbal insult" nowadays; the slippery slope has been sloping off far too much than can be seen as healthy and not being motivated by any social changes during last decades). The high immigration levels and multiculturalism have many detractors of course and that is not the problem. What matters apart from critisiseable politics is the relations between people. These (im)moral fractions are by the end of the day more due to plain cheapness and lack of civil resistance on behalf of society. To simply blame the few criminal muslims and the stupid politicians who brought them here with more or less no hindrance against their "suburban culture" is not enough. A huge part of the people who gets insults like the one described are not either islamist or unemployed, only non-white "victims" of cheap driven political nonsense combined with popular primitive bullshit. To try to solve that has nothing to do with elections or necessary stops on immigration.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2018 18:53:48 GMT
It's hard for me to be objective on this subject. I have such a detestation of PC that I admit my hackles are raised whenever anyone even uses the r-word, or any other claim of prejudice.
Nevertheless, you are a conservative and an admirer of the Old South so you seem unlikely to be blinded by PC. Any kind of rudeness and unprovoked nastiness is wrong, including racism. I don't think it's any worse than, say, calling someone a fat slob, or ugly, or a loser. But it's just as bad.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 19:09:54 GMT
Maybe it would help to use other words than racism. Loaded with historical weight terms like that always tends to loose proper meaning when applied to (other) mutated forms. They were naturally a bit obscure in the first place and unfortunately now appears to be near to not usable at all without a lot of strain.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2018 19:34:33 GMT
Maybe it would help to use other words than rac ism. Loaded with historical weight terms like that always tends to loose proper meaning when applied to (other) mutated forms. They were naturally a bit obscure in the first place and unfortunately now appears to be near to not usable at all without a lot of strain. I agree. I think "race hatred" is a better term. |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 19:48:16 GMT
Only that hatred no less is both vague and exaggerated enough as it is...
Serious deliberations of wordings are long overdue. That´s the major issue, apart from persons having to take insults without fence as they come.
Theory and practise.
A society that doesn´t react to open unprovoked nastiness directly targeted against skin colour has already lost a great deal. The parallell to fat slob or ugly seem relevant.
Still some fat people on occasion take it lightly (even if suffering) and can even make some generous joke back about it. I imagine it would be even more sad for a coloured - or "ugly" - person to attempt some effort like that. And somehow the skin colour also covers a wider spectrum than a facial feature and thus making it most probably the very worst of the three. How would you "joke" about that unchangeable human dignity, especially if you had no other alternative in sight and were taking it in from the lower position? It´s not in the slightest means a result of your own lifestyle, and no small matter to trivialise.
I don´t want to argue against your views either. It just gets to me emotionally as well.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2018 19:52:50 GMT
In the earlier example I´d say that "hatred" arguably would be a too strong word. It was more like contempt than hatred. They were not racists in the sense of nazis either, only "stupid common people harassing two persons they didn´t like the sight of". Bad as that!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 28, 2018 19:36:21 GMT
I'm triggered by the word racist.
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