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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 30, 2018 11:18:06 GMT
This is a crosspost from something I put up at Fish Eaters, slightly modified here ...
I wonder if anyone here has heard of a Youtuber called Steve Turley?
Anyway, I have mixed feelings about this guy.
On the one hand, I think he's paying close attention to certain developments in Europe (as well as elsewhere, but I'm most interested in his European commentary).
And what he sees is fascinating and I'm very grateful for his bringing important stuff to my attention.
On the other hand, I do fear he is far too optimistic about what sees as a resurgence of tradition and Christianity in Europe.
One of his playlists is called Renewed Christian Europe!
He is an American and I question how much he has actually been in Europe.
I fear some Americans are too naive about Europe, just like I am far too naive about America, not having been back there in a long time. (Too long ... one day I hope to afford it.)
Anyway here are some videos from him that give me food for thought - even if I don't necessarily agree with it all.
Would be VERY interested to hear what others think ...
(Note to this forum - I am maybe even more interested in what people here think of this and would particularly like find time to talk about what he raises, here if anyone is game.)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 30, 2018 12:54:10 GMT
Very interesting, Roger. I pretty much share your feelings. (I've only watched the first so far. I'm not going to watch the last, about a baby boom-- having lost several children to miscarriage I find "baby talk" difficult, which covers a lot of discourse on the populist right. I hope that isn't too much information.) We have an extraordinary situation where the right-wing is (to a certain extent) reasserting its Christian heritage, while the Christian churches themselves are distancing themselves from the right. I feel conflicted about this. For instance, about immigration, there are so many considerations.... 1) As a social and cultural conservative, I want national character and traditions to be preserved, so I'm instinctively opposed to mass immigration. 2) As a Catholic, I want to listen to the Pope and magisterium, which always emphasise a welcome to immigrants. 3) I resent the constant bombardment of open borders propaganda on TV, in the entertainment industry, academe, etc., and I distrust the motives of such propaganda. I don't think they are so much concerned with the well-being of migrants as the obliteration of national cultures. I also resent the constant conflation of genuine refugees, genuine asylum seekers, fake refugees, fake asylum seekers, economic migrants who move reluctantly through a lack of jobs at home, economic migrants who move for better conditions, economic migrants who move for career reasons or just for an adventure...and never a question of the migrants moving home once a situation has improved. 4) It's not just a case of immigration, but multiculturalism, where the new arrivals are not seen as guests, but as somehow sharing equal cultural billing with the indigenous population...or the culture of the indigenous population might even the shamed and harassed into changing for the sake of the arrivals. 5) I am increasingly of the opinion that national cultures are doomed, anyway, so populism might not even be worth it. There is also the question of how much cultural Christianity benefits Christianity-- if Christianity is used as a tribal marker, I tend to think that it ultimately rebounds on Christianity. Look at Ireland. The indication from Putin's Russia seems to be that the apparent Orthodox revival is only cosmetic, anyway-- new churches are being built, but Russians are not actually going to them in any greater numbers. www.pewforum.org/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/Very complicated questions indeed. |
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Post by Séamus on Jul 30, 2018 23:51:21 GMT
Very interesting, Roger...etc...br] 5) I am increasingly of the opinion that national cultures are doomed, anyway, so populism might not even be worth it. ...etc...indeed. It might only be a little thing, but at the Tour de France we saw something not usually seen at international presentations- the flag and anthem of Wales proudly displayed beside the Union Jack. Good for them. |
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Post by Séamus on Jul 31, 2018 8:42:07 GMT
Very interesting, Roger. I pretty much share your feelings. (I've only watched the first so far. I'm not going to watch the last, about a baby boom-- having lost several children to miscarriage I find "baby talk" difficult, which covers a lot of discourse on the populist right. I hope that isn't too much information.) We have an extraordinary situation where the right-wing is (to a certain extent) reasserting its Christian heritage, while the Christian churches themselves are distancing themselves from the right. I feel conflicted about this. For instance, about immigration, there are so many considerations.... 1) ...etc indeed. I always find neo-con talk of demographic and religious decline (in Europe particularly) a bit simplistic at times. Certainly there's a connection between a country's faith and birth-rate, but, for one,50s Ireland had plenty of catholic ethics and, yet, many of my parents relations and friends who lived their halcyon days during this era were childless or married at mature age or died as bachelors or spinsters, it had little to do with contraception or similar mentality |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 31, 2018 9:50:39 GMT
Very interesting, Roger. I pretty much share your feelings. (I've only watched the first so far. I'm not going to watch the last, about a baby boom-- having lost several children to miscarriage I find "baby talk" difficult, which covers a lot of discourse on the populist right. I hope that isn't too much information.) We have an extraordinary situation where the right-wing is (to a certain extent) reasserting its Christian heritage, while the Christian churches themselves are distancing themselves from the right. I feel conflicted about this. For instance, about immigration, there are so many considerations.... 1) ...etc indeed. I always find neo-con talk of demographic and religious decline (in Europe particularly) a bit simplistic at times. Certainly there's a connection between a country's faith and birth-rate, but, for one,50s Ireland had plenty of catholic ethics and, yet, many of my parents relations and friends who lived their halcyon days during this era were childless or married at mature age or died as bachelors or spinsters, it had little to do with contraception or similar mentality simplistic was association near at hand also after watching the three videos yesterday; some truths are there and well presented but... it seemed deliberately vague with many references to "scholars says" and also the sound of blood and race didn´t have such a nice ring to it after all. |
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Post by Stephen on Jul 31, 2018 10:04:08 GMT
Great to see you back posting on the forum. To me it definitely seems like there has been a change in the political environment.
I think he overenthusiastic about the Change. It definitely is positive to see Poland and Hungry adopting more traditional policies. The question for me is if they will continue the process of liberalism in all its guises (Social, economic and religious)
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Post by Séamus on Jul 31, 2018 11:59:11 GMT
I always find neo-con talk of demographic and religious decline (in Europe particularly) a bit simplistic at times. Certainly there's a connection between a country's faith and birth-rate, but, for one,50s Ireland had plenty of catholic ethics and, yet, many of my parents relations and friends who lived their halcyon days during this era were childless or married at mature age or died as bachelors or spinsters, it had little to do with contraception or similar mentality simplistic was association near at hand also after watching the three videos yesterday; some truths are there and well presented but... it seemed deliberately vague with many references to "scholars says" and also the sound of blood and race didn´t have such a nice ring to it after all. I read a piece in a church journal a little while ago by a well-known-in-some-circles American neo-con which stated that Europe's demographic decline could be seen by the childlessness of the leaders of the four biggest economies. I thought it was actually a silly statement. For one, we're told that Theresa May was always unable to have children. Macron married a woman who possibly past childbearing and IS a step-father to three at any rate. Italy has changed government since, it's a bit hard to keep track there. And as for Angela Merkel- she may or may not have made a conscious decision not to have a family, but she's far from the most left-wing or Godless leader in the world. Rather stern-faced Angela without offspring than smiling Justin with offspring any day. On top of that, there's the consideration that couples without family can make contributions that it would be selfish or unfair had they had many children. Politics is one example. And some of his arguments don't entirely make sense. Italy had one of the lowest birth-rates, but is far from the most secular or post-catholic nation in Europe. From memory, secular France does better, although, going by the winning World Cup team, it would seem that many of France's youth are from immigrant or 'colonial' backgrounds which splits the question a bit. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 31, 2018 12:32:39 GMT
simplistic was association near at hand also after watching the three videos yesterday; some truths are there and well presented but... it seemed deliberately vague with many references to "scholars says" and also the sound of blood and race didn´t have such a nice ring to it after all. I read a piece in a church journal a little while ago by a well-known-in-some-circles American neo-con which stated that Europe's demographic decline could be seen by the childlessness of the leaders of the four biggest economies. I thought it was actually a silly statement. For one, we're told that Theresa May was always unable to have children. Macron married a woman who possibly past childbearing and IS a step-father to three at any rate. Italy has changed government since, it's a bit hard to keep track there. And as for Angela Merkel- she may or may not have made a conscious decision not to have a family, but she's far from the most left-wing or Godless leader in the world. Rather stern-faced Angela without offspring than smiling Justin with offspring any day. On top of that, there's the consideration that couples without family can make contributions that it would be selfish or unfair had they had many children. Politics is one example. And some of his arguments don't entirely make sense. Italy had one of the lowest birth-rates, but is far from the most secular or post-catholic nation in Europe. From memory, secular France does better, although, going by the winning World Cup team, it would seem that many of France's youth are from immigrant or 'colonial' backgrounds which splits the question a bit. Not to mention the fact that Ireland's birth rate is still comparatively high, while it's become insanely liberal. |
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Post by Séamus on Aug 1, 2018 6:50:12 GMT
I read a piece in a church journal a little while ago by a well-known-in-some-circles American neo-con which stated that Europe's demographic decline could be seen by the childlessness of the leaders of the four biggest economies. I thought it was actually a silly ...etc...br]And some of his arguments don't entirely make sense. Italy had one of the lowest birth-rates, but is far from the most secular or post-catholic nation in Europe. From memory, secular France does better, although, going by the winning World Cup team, it would seem that many of France's youth are from immigrant or 'colonial' backgrounds which splits the question a bit. Not to mention the fact that Ireland's birth rate is still comparatively high, while it's become insanely liberal. I daresay the full effect of the current generation's liberalism hasn't been seen it's fullness quite yet. Hopefully the birthrate won't experience huge decline. And I'm far from believing that a man(or woman) with ten children wouldn't make a good politician, or whatever, but obviously there are also other considerations. |
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Post by Tomas on Aug 1, 2018 8:45:00 GMT
Not to mention the fact that Ireland's birth rate is still comparatively high, while it's become insanely liberal. I daresay the full effect of the current generation's liberalism hasn't been seen it's fullness quite yet. Hopefully the birthrate won't experience huge decline. And I'm far from believing that a man(or woman) with ten children wouldn't make a good politician, or whatever, but obviously there are also other considerations. Seems like the liberal Elite are pretending that politics are like the christian Priest´s calling… perhaps that makes sense if you believe (as some may do) their Brave New World templates for governing will make attempts to do as a surrogate for True Religion aka the Catholic faith. An avalanche of devices for making humans slaves to the number of the Beast by compulsory digitized monetary moves or evils eerily hard to resist would not come as a full surprise. I´m afraid the full effect of the lost faith generations hasn´t been seen yet in many ways. What takes generations to build can be destroyed in a shorter time. Lech Walesa was supposedly a prime example of a politican with both integrity and lots of children! |
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Post by rogerbuck on Aug 1, 2018 9:30:08 GMT
Grateful for all these responses and can only find time right now for a partial response to you, Mal. I don't think they are so much concerned with the well-being of migrants as the obliteration of national cultures. I am also suspicious of good intent for the reason you mention, but also Capitalism. The present system of Capitalism needs both low educated people willing to work poor jobs for poor pay and it needs to sustain population to sustain its tax and social systems. Now, in the absence and impossibility of Distributism _at this stage_, I support those social systems. (I prefer Capitalism with a slightly human face to no human face, just like I prefer operable cancer to inoperable cancer.) But still I think the reasons for this mass immigration have far more to do with the requirements of Capitalism, as well as what you said, Mal than is generally being admitted. 5) I am increasingly of the opinion that national cultures are doomed, anyway, so populism might not even be worth it. You would appear to be 180 degrees away from our good Dr Turley! For me, the jury is still out. I certainly share your doubts to a great extent, but I was very, VERY deeply struck by hopeful things during my long time in France recently. And some things Turley is picking up on only corroborate what I saw. I think something hopeful IS happening in non-Anglophone Europe that is harder to s ee in Ireland and Britain. At the same time, I think what you say here is important to hold in mind:
There is also the question of how much cultural Christianity benefits Christianity-- if Christianity is used as a tribal marker, I tend to think that it ultimately rebounds on Christianity. Look at Ireland. The indication from Putin's Russia seems to be that the apparent Orthodox revival is only cosmetic, anyway-- new churches are being built, but Russians are not actually going to them in any greater numbers.
Very complicated questions indeed. "Important to hold in mind" I repeat. Again, the jury is still out for me. I think Turley is way over the top in correlating these, but I also think the situation in Russia may be a bit better than perhaps you imply.
Even the article, which I've only glanced at and need to print and ponder, acknowledges things like:
Children are being educated in Christianity again. We may need to wait a generation or two to see how all this pans out. Again, I very much share your concerns about automatically equating cultural Christianity with the real thing and see you as thinking more carefully than our good doctor here ...
Very complicated questions indeed. Indeed! |
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Post by rogerbuck on Aug 1, 2018 9:35:55 GMT
Great to see you back posting on the forum. To me it definitely seems like there has been a change in the political environment. I think he overenthusiastic about the Change. It definitely is positive to see Poland and Hungry adopting more traditional policies. The question for me is if they will continue the process of liberalism in all its guises (Social, economic and religious) Thank you, Stephen! Yes there is a definite change ... And let me say I WANT to spend more time here. But finding time is tough. Partly because I am so S-L-O-W. Due to some very minor physical coordination problems, I could never learn to type (also drive, swim etc) despite intensive lessons. So everything I write is slow. I probably took over half an hour on just that last response to Mal. So I am slow responding to people here, at my YouTube channel etc. But this place is important to me! |
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Post by Séamus on Aug 2, 2018 1:54:33 GMT
Very interesting, Roger....etc... It's not just a case of immigration, but multiculturalism, where the new arrivals are not seen as guests, but as somehow sharing equal cultural billing with the indigenous population...or the culture of the indigenous population might even the shamed and harassed into changing for the sake of the arrivals. 5) I am increasingly of the opinion that national cultures are doomed, anyway, so populism might not even be worth it. There is also the question of how much cultural Christianity benefits Christianity-..etc... indeed. Of interest,from the opposite side of the globe, from controversial journalist Andrew Bolt: "...What do we share today as Australians when we don't even have a national day or flag we can agree on any more? Even our broadcaster, the ABC, had agitated against keeping January 26 as Australia Day and several Melbourne councils now refuse to celebrate it,claiming it's divisive. Over most government buildings at least three flags are now flown-including ones for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander nations-while many activists deride the Australian flag as racist and 'colonial'. The Western Civilisation that gave this nation it's character...is damned as oppressive and racist even by our universities.... Meanwhile Christianity is losing it's hold as the country's faith..... Muslim extremists refuse to stand for judges, claiming their religion is higher than Australia's law....No flag, faith, national day can be said to represent us now. Nor does even our army. We have so little in common today that more Muslim Australians have joined Islamic State than serve with the Australian Defence Force that fought it. And so we fragment more every year" Certainly not just a European worry then. On the point of the Torres Strait Island flag- the people from that region live mostly-aside from Torres Strait-in northern Queensland,and yet in continent-away Perth we still seem obliged to fly their flag everywhere, I can't pass one by without thinking about how ridiculous it seems- is there even ONE islander passes by a day? are there ANY living here? |
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Post by rogerbuck on Aug 21, 2018 11:08:24 GMT
Maolsheachlann, as you know, I am just not getting, alas, the time I wish I could for this forum.
But I'm continuing this thread because of both
1) I'm interested in Turley's thesis. Even if I can't share his wild optimism, I STILL think he may be onto significant developments in non-Anglo Europe, but which are harder to see in the Anglosphere
2) Our difference above is very interesting to me. To wit: your increasing opinion about national cultures being doomed, uselessness of populism vs the jury being still out for me.
Would be very interested to hear more from anyone about either (1) or (2) ...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 21, 2018 11:36:32 GMT
Maolsheachlann, as you know, I am just not getting, alas, the time I wish I could for this forum. But I'm continuing this thread because of both 1) I'm interested in Turley's thesis. Even if I can't share his wild optimism, I STILL think he may be onto significant developments in non-Anglo Europe, but which are harder to see in the Anglosphere 2) Our difference above is very interesting to me. To wit: your increasing opinion about national cultures being doomed, uselessness of populism vs the jury being still out for me. Would be very interested to hear more from anyone about either (1) or (2) ... Maybe populism isn't pointless, but the aspirations of national revival I had in my youth seem so hopeless now. Compare the programme of the Gaelic Revival and other cultural nationalist movements on the early nineteenth century with populist movements today. It seems that, as long as we can control our borders, we are happy to have the same culture, customs and way of life as the rest of the developed world. The difference seems minimal. Better than nothing, perhaps, but minimal. And the vast impersonal forces which are pushing us all towards globalization seem (to me) like they can be delayed or moderated but not stopped. |
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