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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 18:04:11 GMT
Intrinsically, there is nothing wrong with buying guns to defend yourself and your family, and indeed in the right context, can be salutary. My problem with Servant and Classical Republican's line of thinking is that they are applying this principle to the present-day Irish context, in which the risk of all-out invasion is minimal if non-existent. True, there is a great risk of isolated terror attacks, but this can be combated by greater funding for our intelligence services, the Gardai and the Army, not by the illegal acquisition of firearms. We do need to be careful here, as there might be somebody reading this who could inadvertently be inspired to take the law into their own hands: look at the mosque in Galway that was vandalised last night. I don't think anyone here is advocating vigilantism - as I understood it, the question pertained to whether one is morally obligated to obey an unjust law, when obeying that law would conflict with other higher ethical obligations. It's a philosophical question ultimately. Conscientious objectors during wartime who are jailed for their refusal to fight are acting out this principle. |
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 18:37:00 GMT
If the Irish people wanted a patriotic, pro-Christian, anti-globalist government, they would have one. It's a question of supply and demand, as is always the case in a democracy. The Americans wanted it, and this is what they got. I actually think this is too optmistic a point of view and grossly oversimplifies the problem with American political process. Trump won because he was all of those things and because he had enough money and status and name recognition to simply punch his way through the media siege and win the presidency and do so without oweing anybody anything, not monied interests, not his own party, nobody but the people. That is not possible in Ireland. All the problems you say about the Irish people only caring about money and not God and not patriotism is all true but you have to understand why that is. They are bombarded every. Single. Day. About the need to focus on the economy and nothing else, they are not getting ANY messages about anything else, and the state of the Church in Ireland at present is certainly not helping matters, the common Irishman won't care about God if his local priest and Bishop does not seem eager to tell him about God. Or more accurately, its not that he does not care about these things, more than likely he does, but he has been so reduced to despair which has been reinforced day in and day out by the media, by his government and the cultural reinforcement of these messages being repeated by his social circles, his work circles, by his bosses, his friends, and likely his own wives and family. He may want Ireland to be free and proud, but he has been so induced with fear of poverty that he will support remaining in say, the EU, rather than risk the likely poverty Ireland will face when we inevitably default on our debts (which we will have to do sooner or later). We need someone who is not only like Trump in all he believes and his ability to withstand the media firestorm, and the assaults on his status which will inevitably come and do so without the support of the establishment parties (which WILL be against a perspective leader doing all of the things we need) but also he has to fight against the despair induced apathy of the Irish body politic. We have yet to psychologically recover from the international browbeaten we received after we voted No in the Lisbon treaty referendum, and spiritually we now view our objections as literally worthless because we were made to vote again because apparently, to the Irish not only is it possible to vote 'wrong' in a democratic society when it shouldn't be, but voting against the prevailing winds of globalism and secularism is the 'wrong' thing to do. THAT is why this problem cannot be fixed. You need Saints to right the state of the Church, you need warriors to stand in our police forces and army despite the budget cuts and the lack of prestige, and you need some prince-like figure who can stand tall amidst all of this quagmire to even begin to fix the problems in Ireland. But before you can have any of that, you need the Irish themselves to actually believe in themselves as our forebears did. That is why our democracy is dead, not because our government is effectively ruled by the NGOs and the media browbeats and shames the population, and not because we have been physically conquered. We have been spiritually conquered for the first time in our long history, and until you wrest the dread claws from the hearts of Irishmen, this will continue to be a problem, and we can't simply just fall back on the simple old truthes of 'this is a democracy, if we want it we will get it'. You won't get what you want, you will get what the establishment wants to give you. In two flavours if necessary. EDIT: Sorry I was writing all that before I saw you had removed your post. |
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 18:52:10 GMT
If the Irish people wanted a patriotic, pro-Christian, anti-globalist government, they would have one. It's a question of supply and demand, as is always the case in a democracy. The Americans wanted it, and this is what they got. I actually think this is too optmistic a point of view and grossly oversimplifies the problem with American political process. Trump won because he was all of those things and because he had enough money and status and name recognition to simply punch his way through the media siege and win the presidency and do so without oweing anybody anything, not monied interests, not his own party, nobody but the people. That is not possible in Ireland. All the problems you say about the Irish people only caring about money and not God and not patriotism is all true but you have to understand why that is. They are bombarded every. Single. Day. About the need to focus on the economy and nothing else, they are not getting ANY messages about anything else, and the state of the Church in Ireland at present is certainly not helping matters, the common Irishman won't care about God if his local priest and Bishop does not seem eager to tell him about God. Or more accurately, its not that he does not care about these things, more than likely he does, but he has been so reduced to despair which has been reinforced day in and day out by the media, by his government and the cultural reinforcement of these messages being repeated by his social circles, his work circles, by his bosses, his friends, and likely his own wives and family. He may want Ireland to be free and proud, but he has been so induced with fear of poverty that he will support remaining in say, the EU, rather than risk the likely poverty Ireland will face when we inevitably default on our debts (which we will have to do sooner or later). We need someone who is not only like Trump in all he believes and his ability to withstand the media firestorm, and the assaults on his status which will inevitably come and do so without the support of the establishment parties (which WILL be against a perspective leader doing all of the things we need) but also he has to fight against the despair induced apathy of the Irish body politic. We have yet to psychologically recover from the international browbeaten we received after we voted No in the Lisbon treaty referendum, and spiritually we now view our objections as literally worthless because we were made to vote again because apparently, to the Irish not only is it possible to vote 'wrong' in a democratic society when it shouldn't be, but voting against the prevailing winds of globalism and secularism is the 'wrong' thing to do. THAT is why this problem cannot be fixed. You need Saints to right the state of the Church, you need warriors to stand in our police forces and army despite the budget cuts and the lack of prestige, and you need some prince-like figure who can stand tall amidst all of this quagmire to even begin to fix the problems in Ireland. But before you can have any of that, you need the Irish themselves to actually believe in themselves as our forebears did. That is why our democracy is dead, not because our government is effectively ruled by the NGOs and the media browbeats and shames the population, and not because we have been physically conquered. We have been spiritually conquered for the first time in our long history, and until you wrest the dread claws from the hearts of Irishmen, this will continue to be a problem, and we can't simply just fall back on the simple old truthes of 'this is a democracy, if we want it we will get it'. You won't get what you want, you will get what the establishment wants to give you. In two flavours if necessary. EDIT: Sorry I was writing all that before I saw you had removed your post. No problem - I have spoken elsewhere about how I think greed and self-interest have replaced God in the hearts of the Irish people. Where you and I differ is that you seem to think this idealogy is being imposed on us from above and that we are passive victims, whereas I believe we are moral agents who are choosing to bow to false gods. Unlike you I don't sense any despair in the Irish people, except a latent despair in some of the working classes. What I sense instead is a smugness and a total, all-consuming embrace of the temporal freedom that comes with what money can buy. In fact, I'm so sick of the social conversations that centre around these things (what someone can buy, what their kids can buy, etc.) that I have pretty much withdrawn from nearly all forms of social discourse. I'm really coming to hate this place, which leads me to think I should probably leave it sooner rather than later. But I guess deep down perhaps this deep hate is really a deeper love tinged with despair. |
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 19:04:39 GMT
I actually think this is too optmistic a point of view and grossly oversimplifies the problem with American political process. Trump won because he was all of those things and because he had enough money and status and name recognition to simply punch his way through the media siege and win the presidency and do so without oweing anybody anything, not monied interests, not his own party, nobody but the people. That is not possible in Ireland. All the problems you say about the Irish people only caring about money and not God and not patriotism is all true but you have to understand why that is. They are bombarded every. Single. Day. About the need to focus on the economy and nothing else, they are not getting ANY messages about anything else, and the state of the Church in Ireland at present is certainly not helping matters, the common Irishman won't care about God if his local priest and Bishop does not seem eager to tell him about God. Or more accurately, its not that he does not care about these things, more than likely he does, but he has been so reduced to despair which has been reinforced day in and day out by the media, by his government and the cultural reinforcement of these messages being repeated by his social circles, his work circles, by his bosses, his friends, and likely his own wives and family. He may want Ireland to be free and proud, but he has been so induced with fear of poverty that he will support remaining in say, the EU, rather than risk the likely poverty Ireland will face when we inevitably default on our debts (which we will have to do sooner or later). We need someone who is not only like Trump in all he believes and his ability to withstand the media firestorm, and the assaults on his status which will inevitably come and do so without the support of the establishment parties (which WILL be against a perspective leader doing all of the things we need) but also he has to fight against the despair induced apathy of the Irish body politic. We have yet to psychologically recover from the international browbeaten we received after we voted No in the Lisbon treaty referendum, and spiritually we now view our objections as literally worthless because we were made to vote again because apparently, to the Irish not only is it possible to vote 'wrong' in a democratic society when it shouldn't be, but voting against the prevailing winds of globalism and secularism is the 'wrong' thing to do. THAT is why this problem cannot be fixed. You need Saints to right the state of the Church, you need warriors to stand in our police forces and army despite the budget cuts and the lack of prestige, and you need some prince-like figure who can stand tall amidst all of this quagmire to even begin to fix the problems in Ireland. But before you can have any of that, you need the Irish themselves to actually believe in themselves as our forebears did. That is why our democracy is dead, not because our government is effectively ruled by the NGOs and the media browbeats and shames the population, and not because we have been physically conquered. We have been spiritually conquered for the first time in our long history, and until you wrest the dread claws from the hearts of Irishmen, this will continue to be a problem, and we can't simply just fall back on the simple old truthes of 'this is a democracy, if we want it we will get it'. You won't get what you want, you will get what the establishment wants to give you. In two flavours if necessary. EDIT: Sorry I was writing all that before I saw you had removed your post. No problem - I have spoken elsewhere about how I think greed and self-interest have replaced God in the hearts of the Irish people. Where you and I differ is that you seem to think this idealogy is being imposed on us from above and that we are passive victims, whereas I believe we are moral agents who are choosing to bow to false gods. Unlike you I don't sense any despair in the Irish people, except a latent despair in some of the working classes. What I sense instead is a smugness and a total, all-consuming embrace of the temporal freedom that comes with what money can buy. In fact, I'm so sick of the social conversations that centre around these things (what someone can buy, what their kids can buy, etc.) that I have pretty much withdrawn from nearly all forms of social discourse. I'm really coming to hate this place, which leads me to think I should probably leave it sooner rather than later. But I guess deep down perhaps this deep hate is really a deeper love tinged with despair. I think our differing perspective may have to do with where we actually are respectively on the island. If you would forgive my imprudence, can I assume you reside in the South, perhaps near one of the Major cities, like Limerick, Galway, or Cork? What you say and what you sense I could readily see being applied to virtually everyone in Dublin city (where effectively half our country lives) especially the smugness and the coldness towards life. Which makes sense as Globalisation practically forces 'capitals' like Dublin to become even more insular bubbles than cities ordinarily are (Dublin always did see itself as apart from the rest of Ireland in some ways, which makes sense since that is basically the Irish village mentality writ large and applied to a major city). Up here in the North I have never known anything other than Working class folk, and middle and upper class nationalists (most of whom made it to where they are within one or two generations and are not far removed, both physically and culturally from their working class forebears and peers), and I myself am middle class born of working class parents who worked their entire lives to give me and my brothers the life I had. So from my perspective I have experienced the resignation of the working class, the despair of 'successful' upper class folk who became doctors and lawyers but still struggle to eek out an existence, and the listlessness of my own generation who grew up, went to University and have nothing to show for it, even when they took good degrees and I am witnessing the slow inevitable stagnation of the middle class. All the while still immersed in a culture that greatly values family, community, heritage and up until relatively recently, God. If that is the state of Irishmen who aren't far removed from all these good things and we are in such a state of despair and resignation, I utterly dread to scratch beneath the surface of what the southerners are undergoing, beneath their smiles and smugness. If nothing else, the suicide rate, especially among the young, is enough of a barometer of the spiritual health of our society. |
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 19:34:09 GMT
No problem - I have spoken elsewhere about how I think greed and self-interest have replaced God in the hearts of the Irish people. Where you and I differ is that you seem to think this idealogy is being imposed on us from above and that we are passive victims, whereas I believe we are moral agents who are choosing to bow to false gods. Unlike you I don't sense any despair in the Irish people, except a latent despair in some of the working classes. What I sense instead is a smugness and a total, all-consuming embrace of the temporal freedom that comes with what money can buy. In fact, I'm so sick of the social conversations that centre around these things (what someone can buy, what their kids can buy, etc.) that I have pretty much withdrawn from nearly all forms of social discourse. I'm really coming to hate this place, which leads me to think I should probably leave it sooner rather than later. But I guess deep down perhaps this deep hate is really a deeper love tinged with despair. I think our differing perspective may have to do with where we actually are respectively on the island. If you would forgive my imprudence, can I assume you reside in the South, perhaps near one of the Major cities, like Limerick, Galway, or Cork? What you say and what you sense I could readily see being applied to virtually everyone in Dublin city (where effectively half our country lives) especially the smugness and the coldness towards life. Which makes sense as Globalisation practically forces 'capitals' like Dublin to become even more insular bubbles than cities ordinarily are (Dublin always did see itself as apart from the rest of Ireland in some ways, which makes sense since that is basically the Irish village mentality writ large and applied to a major city). Up here in the North I have never known anything other than Working class folk, and middle and upper class nationalists (most of whom made it to where they are within one or two generations and are not far removed, both physically and culturally from their working class forebears and peers), and I myself am middle class born of working class parents who worked their entire lives to give me and my brothers the life I had. So from my perspective I have experienced the resignation of the working class, the despair of 'successful' upper class folk who became doctors and lawyers but still struggle to eek out an existence, and the listlessness of my own generation who grew up, went to University and have nothing to show for it, even when they took good degrees and I am witnessing the slow inevitable stagnation of the middle class. All the while still immersed in a culture that greatly values family, community, heritage and up until relatively recently, God. If that is the state of Irishmen who aren't far removed from all these good things and we are in such a state of despair and resignation, I utterly dread to scratch beneath the surface of what the southerners are undergoing, beneath their smiles and smugness. If nothing else, the suicide rate, especially among the young, is enough of a barometer of the spiritual health of our society. I'm really interested in your comments on the North vs. the South. I'm in Dublin (unfortunately), which from what I can see is now a fully globalised city, filled with the Nouveau Riche of all nationalities, with very little to distinguish it culturally from say Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, or Austin, TX (save perhaps a Leprechaun Museum). Recently I spent some time in Cork for the first time in many years, and found, to my dismay, that it resembled Dublin in its worst aspects (if one can even gauge that kind of thing accurately as a tourist). So my feeling at the moment is - as goes Dublin, so goes Ireland. But maybe I am being too myopic. From what you are saying - and maybe I am misreading you - it sounds like many middle-class professionals are struggling financially up North, perhaps because of a less-buoyant labour market. If this is the case, perhaps there is more hope than I am able to see from my current vantage point. |
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 19:45:59 GMT
I think our differing perspective may have to do with where we actually are respectively on the island. If you would forgive my imprudence, can I assume you reside in the South, perhaps near one of the Major cities, like Limerick, Galway, or Cork? What you say and what you sense I could readily see being applied to virtually everyone in Dublin city (where effectively half our country lives) especially the smugness and the coldness towards life. Which makes sense as Globalisation practically forces 'capitals' like Dublin to become even more insular bubbles than cities ordinarily are (Dublin always did see itself as apart from the rest of Ireland in some ways, which makes sense since that is basically the Irish village mentality writ large and applied to a major city). Up here in the North I have never known anything other than Working class folk, and middle and upper class nationalists (most of whom made it to where they are within one or two generations and are not far removed, both physically and culturally from their working class forebears and peers), and I myself am middle class born of working class parents who worked their entire lives to give me and my brothers the life I had. So from my perspective I have experienced the resignation of the working class, the despair of 'successful' upper class folk who became doctors and lawyers but still struggle to eek out an existence, and the listlessness of my own generation who grew up, went to University and have nothing to show for it, even when they took good degrees and I am witnessing the slow inevitable stagnation of the middle class. All the while still immersed in a culture that greatly values family, community, heritage and up until relatively recently, God. If that is the state of Irishmen who aren't far removed from all these good things and we are in such a state of despair and resignation, I utterly dread to scratch beneath the surface of what the southerners are undergoing, beneath their smiles and smugness. If nothing else, the suicide rate, especially among the young, is enough of a barometer of the spiritual health of our society. I'm really interested in your comments on the North vs. the South. I'm in Dublin (unfortunately), which from what I can see is now a fully globalised city, filled with the Nouveau Riche of all nationalities, with very little to distinguish it culturally from say Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, or Austin, TX (save perhaps a Leprechaun Museum). Recently I spent some time in Cork for the first time in many years, and found, to my dismay, that it resembled Dublin in its worst aspects (if one can even gauge that kind of thing accurately as a tourist). So my feeling at the moment is - as goes Dublin, so goes Ireland. But maybe I am being too myopic. From what you are saying - and maybe I am misreading you - it sounds like many middle-class professionals are struggling financially up North, perhaps because of a less-buoyant labour market. If this is the case, perhaps there is more hope than I am able to see from my current vantage point. We're suffering much the same as the rest of you, yes. I'm in the professional class myself in terms of work history, qualifications and industry and I have been unemployed for a year and half. Its exactly as fun as it sounds. Most people struggle to get part time contracts, good jobs simply do not exist outside of Belfast (which like all globalised cities, sucks up resources, revenue and opportunitiesfrom the rest of the country. London does the same thing to nearly the entirety of England if not Wales and Scotland as well. Look up anything about the NHS to understand how bad off our doctors and medical professionals are and our lawyers are struggling and have to fight tooth and nail to stop the government from slashing things like legal aid which allows people who cant afford a lawyer's fees (virtually everyone) to hire a lawyer for crises situations, gone are the days when Doctors and Lawyers were the most respected professions in our society up here. Belfast itself isn't completely soulless as a city I feel, there is a different atmosphere than is found in Dublin I feel but that may be my biases talking there. Also I fear I may have oversold how greatly we value Family, tradition and heritage up here. Its definitely present, and I believe as bad as the troubles are, it is largely responsible in somewhat insulating the Northerners from the corroding effects globalisation had on the Southerners. Tribalism does have its upsides it seems. But these things are not as strong as they were when I was younger and definitely not as strong as they ought to be. |
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Post by cato on Jun 6, 2017 21:35:53 GMT
I think there has been an outbreak of green biroism on this thread. Should people have the right to illegally acquire guns to defend themselves ? No no no.
Israel with the best equipped army on earth a top class intelligence network universal conscription etc had to build a security wall and bring in draconian restrictions on palestinians to stop terror attacks.
Untrained individuals with illegal guns (who is going to sell us these firearms?)will simply become another problem for the police to deal with .If I can illegally have a gun why can't everyone ? What type of gun do people want ? Assault rifles ?Authomatic pistols? Have the people posing this question any training to use these weapons?
On a positive note moslem speakers today have admitted there is a problem with radicalisation in Ireland and this was given prominent coverage on RTE. Its a small step but a taboo was broken , I hope. Maybe its time to arm the Gardai as previously mentioned. Our state's security and intelligence is weak and needs strenghtening . Individuals picking up firearms from criminals or ex terrorists is not a solution.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2017 21:57:48 GMT
I think there's few people breathing who don't knowingly break the law and feel justified, in some regard, every now and again.
Owning an illegal firearm is admittedly a dramatic example, but in principle I don't think it's any different than employing somebody off the books.
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Post by cato on Jun 6, 2017 22:37:51 GMT
During the civil war it merited death by firing squad.
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 22:49:15 GMT
During the civil war it merited death by firing squad. To be fair though, that was less a foreign invasion and an actual civil war, were owning a weapon meant, at least to the government, you were a potential rebel if not actively a rebel. A different context from what I set out in the thread. |
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Post by cato on Jun 7, 2017 9:44:31 GMT
Some commentators seem to be approaching this issue in a somewhat abstract manner. In an Irish context our home grown fascist movement has been the most prominent owner of illegal arms (which it freely used ironically mainly against Irish catholics and protestants). Their seven man army council of course also claimed to be the real legitimate Irish Government.
Individuals possessing arms would be of no use in resisting a potential tyranny. The only possible detterent in my view would be a mass armed citizen's militia like Switzerland.
The issue of buying arms from criminals, usually engaging in violent crime and the scourge of drugs hasn't been addressed. Preventing armed anarchy is a more likely problem than a potential tyrannical government ,that no one has actually described. Where has there been a tyranny in a modern democracy that citizens resisted by force of arms ?
Buying illegal guns is a very serious crime and it directly undermines the common good and our right to life and a secure safe environment. The current Irish law carries a penalty up to 14 years.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 7, 2017 9:51:37 GMT
Although I dislike the Provisional IRA as much as anyone else, I'm of the opinion that, in the early stages of the Troubles, armed self-defence was justifiable as law and order had broken down. Terrorism, on the other hand, was not.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Jun 7, 2017 10:24:25 GMT
I followed a prominent American conservative blogger on social media. A while ago, the discussion turned to The United States' second amendment and the country's normalised gun culture. One commenter from Australia, critical of American gun culture remarked that during the hurricane Katrina crisis, he observed on the news several civil defence officers at work going about their tasks with assault rifles slung on their backs. Why, he asked, would a civil defence officer get up in the morning during a crisis and leave for work with an AR-14. The responses from Americans was unusually sober and lucid. They explained that the United States is not a properly civil society. If a crisis like Katrina happened in somewhere like Australia, the vast majority of people would pull together and things like looting would be a rarity. In the United States however, a crisis like Katrina causes a far higher proportion of looting and crime, as people take advantage of the situation to murder, rape and rob. Although the American frontier was legally closed long ago, it was never psychologically closed. This is why civil defence officers have to go about their work with assault rifles.
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Post by cato on Jun 7, 2017 18:24:56 GMT
That is disturbing.
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Post by servantofthechief on May 29, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
Reviving this thread in light of recent events, Ireland going full tilt down towards a black hole, the Eurocratic President of Italy actively frustrating the populist elective government from appointing their ministers, and the arrest of Tommy Robinson in the UK on top of the Telford and similar scandals (not to mention the arrest and conviction of Count Dankula for a bloody joke video of his pug doing a Nazi salute) and growing instability throughout Europe, I feel the spirit of this thread is more relevant now than it was when I first started it and I wonder if anyone's position on the matter has change regarding acquiring weaponry even if one has to do so illegally, to defend oneself, one's family and community if hard times come about (and it looks like they are finally on the horizon with police states, shariah police on European streets, growing violence, media blackouts and even some countries like Sweden going as far as sending leaflets out to every citizen of Sweden telling them what to do in the event of a war and how to defend the country on an individual level).
I am now fully of the opinion taking such precautions is justified (if somewhat dangerous) because things continue to spiral out of control and there is no sign of level headed members of the political class from taking control in a manner that can't be vetoed by the increasingly blatant totalitarianism of the EU.
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