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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 5, 2017 10:12:37 GMT
I have been thinking about this for a while and the London Terror attack the other night (while I was lying exhausted in the hotel suite of my brother's wedding no less, so exhausted I couldn't bring myself to particularly care that another one has happened until a friend told me some details) brings home the truth of the situation to me more than even the Manchester attack did.
When do you think it is ok to actively ignore your country's law restricting your right to firearms and the firearms you can own?
I ask this primarily in the Catholic context and had a long discussion with a friend about the topic, we are not obligated to obey an unjust law but nor are we allowed to rebel against a legitimate authority. However in a time of war we are obligated to defend our families, ourselves and our neighbour, we are also allowed to fight an authority if that authority is say, actively trying to kill us (IE, if the king comes over the hill with an army to destroy your village, you are justified in defending yourself, you're just not allowed to rebel if he has a particularly onerous rule, which is one of the reasons we have to put up with the absolutely terrible state of affairs in the Irish republic peacefully), we now live in a era where it is all but an open secret that our rulers do not have our best interests at heart, actively lie to us when their rulership ostensibly relies on our regular votes for approval (de facto it does not, but de jure it does), actively welcome and encourage the influx of criminal and seditious elements and populations hostile to our culture, way of life, language, religion and who pose real and present threats to our families and nations, and who actively prosecute and punish those who criticise these policies and who speak the truth about what is happening.
This is not a situation, I do not think, for justified rebellion, not yet in any case. The king is not yet coming over the hill with an army. But it is a dangerous state of affairs and one a reasonable and prudent man cannot be faulted for having justified and well founded fear.
As such, is a man right to actively ignore his country's restrictions and regulations and, if he is able to do so, find a means of procuring himself adequate weapons to defend himself and his family, even if it is illegal, given we live in such times? It is only a matter of time before it finally comes home to Ireland, we will have our own Islamic terror attacks if we haven't already (I personally find the recent bomb disposal in Dublin suspicious. Dissident republicans planning to bring the bombs up North? Why then did it have to bring in the bomb disposal to Dublin in such a hurry?) and there is reports ISIS have actually managed to set up a small cell here in Ireland already (not surprising, according to some leaks, Al Queda had a cell here for a decade already)
As it stands by some estimates, Ireland has 11 guns for every 100 people. Which sounds like a lot but if you know the nature of gun ownership, less then ten people within a select 100 would have the majority of those 11 guns. And the nature of gun ownership most of those people will have all the proper licences, insurances, and are strictly regulated. Farmers with shotguns for instance. I am utterly convinced that the Germany and France are awash with people hiding guns under their floorboards at this point given the reports we are seeing of a sudden spike in black market activity for gun sales (with only the most obvious purchasers of illegal guns being the migrants themselves, for goodness sake, ISIS itself has shown social media photos of their soldiers wielding military grade European bullpup rifles that most civilians in Europe can't get even illegally) and it makes me wonder how many people here in Ireland have done the same.
I am not actively promoting criminality in this thread, nor am I asking anyone to effectively dox themselves by revealing if they have or have not acquired illegal firearms (in fact its probably best if you don't say whether you have or not), I am just opening up the discussion because this needs to be talked about. Its going to happen here in Ireland, sooner or later, and we are going to see the same anaemic response to terror as we have seen in other countries and the same crackdown on people saying the Emperor has no clothes.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by Young Ireland on Jun 5, 2017 10:23:55 GMT
I have been thinking about this for a while and the London Terror attack the other night (while I was lying exhausted in the hotel suite of my brother's wedding no less, so exhausted I couldn't bring myself to particularly care that another one has happened until a friend told me some details) brings home the truth of the situation to me more than even the Manchester attack did. When do you think it is ok to actively ignore your country's law restricting your right to firearms and the firearms you can own? I ask this primarily in the Catholic context and had a long discussion with a friend about the topic, we are not obligated to obey an unjust law but nor are we allowed to rebel against a legitimate authority. However in a time of war we are obligated to defend our families, ourselves and our neighbour, we are also allowed to fight an authority if that authority is say, actively trying to kill us (IE, if the king comes over the hill with an army to destroy your village, you are justified in defending yourself, you're just not allowed to rebel if he has a particularly onerous rule, which is one of the reasons we have to put up with the absolutely terrible state of affairs in the Irish republic peacefully), we now live in a era where it is all but an open secret that our rulers do not have our best interests at heart, actively lie to us when their rulership ostensibly relies on our regular votes for approval (de facto it does not, but de jure it does), actively welcome and encourage the influx of criminal and seditious elements and populations hostile to our culture, way of life, language, religion and who pose real and present threats to our families and nations, and who actively prosecute and punish those who criticise these policies and who speak the truth about what is happening. This is not a situation, I do not think, for justified rebellion, not yet in any case. The king is not yet coming over the hill with an army. But it is a dangerous state of affairs and one a reasonable and prudent man cannot be faulted for having justified and well founded fear. As such, is a man right to actively ignore his country's restrictions and regulations and, if he is able to do so, find a means of procuring himself adequate weapons to defend himself and his family, even if it is illegal, given we live in such times? It is only a matter of time before it finally comes home to Ireland, we will have our own Islamic terror attacks if we haven't already (I personally find the recent bomb disposal in Dublin suspicious. Dissident republicans planning to bring the bombs up North? Why then did it have to bring in the bomb disposal to Dublin in such a hurry?) and there is reports ISIS have actually managed to set up a small cell here in Ireland already (not surprising, according to some leaks, Al Queda had a cell here for a decade already) As it stands by some estimates, Ireland has 11 guns for every 100 people. Which sounds like a lot but if you know the nature of gun ownership, less then ten people within a select 100 would have the majority of those 11 guns. And the nature of gun ownership most of those people will have all the proper licences, insurances, and are strictly regulated. Farmers with shotguns for instance. I am utterly convinced that the Germany and France are awash with people hiding guns under their floorboards at this point given the reports we are seeing of a sudden spike in black market activity for gun sales (with only the most obvious purchasers of illegal guns being the migrants themselves, for goodness sake, ISIS itself has shown social media photos of their soldiers wielding military grade European bullpup rifles that most civilians in Europe can't get even illegally) and it makes me wonder how many people here in Ireland have done the same. I am not actively promoting criminality in this thread, nor am I asking anyone to effectively dox themselves by revealing if they have or have not acquired illegal firearms (in fact its probably best if you don't say whether you have or not), I am just opening up the discussion because this needs to be talked about. Its going to happen here in Ireland, sooner or later, and we are going to see the same anaemic response to terror as we have seen in other countries and the same crackdown on people saying the Emperor has no clothes. What are your thoughts? To be honest, vigilantism is not going to solve this. We need to dialogue with the Muslim communities and help them to integrate better into Irish society. People join ISIS due to alienation from society, and any lasting strategy needs to address this. Perpetuating a climate of distrust is unhelpful and will only make things worse. |
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 5, 2017 10:51:03 GMT
To be honest, vigilantism is not going to solve this. We need to dialogue with the Muslim communities and help them to integrate better into Irish society. People join ISIS due to alienation from society, and any lasting strategy needs to address this. Perpetuating a climate of distrust is unhelpful and will only make things worse. I am not convinced by this at all. We have been having a dialogue with the Muslims resident in our countries for going on two decades now if not longer. Countries like Sweden have all but bent over backwards to accommodate them and it still has done nothing to address this problem. At. All. And it never will. Dialogue only works if both sides are interested in having a conversation and the Muslims, by and large, are not. They segregate willingly, they actively punish their own who stray away and promote not integrating with the wider society. We have seen this time and again in multiple countries, when it is small, the Muslim population seems to integrate fine, but as it gets larger the problem exacerbates. Are there good Muslims? Yes of course there are, but the fact is they are a minority of the overall worldwide Muslim population and increasingly, a minority of the Muslims resident in our own countries as mass migration continues unabated without time to try to inculcate the new immigrants into our culture. We could not have done more to lessen the alienation of the Islamic youth of our societies into our culture and it has backfired miserably, a sizeable portion of the youths going to join ISIS were even college Educated and thoroughly steeped in our youth culture and entertainment. The problem is much deeper than integration, the problem is our secular society offers these youths nothing beyond material comfort, just as it offers us nothing, and ISIS, unfortunately, offers them something much deeper (if darker) than our own society does. If you cannot resolve that, no amount of dialogue will ever be enough, even if they were willing to have it. In any case this is not a thread about the ifs, buts, possibilities and strategies of integrating extremely foreign religious groups into our culture, its a thread about the reality on the ground, and I was not advocating vigilantism in the sense of 'going out and doing something about it' but in the sense of being prepared for the worst, because like it or not, the worst is happening, has happened and will continue to happen until things seriously change and change is nowhere on the horizon. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 5, 2017 11:16:10 GMT
I'm inclined to agree with you, Servant. (May I call you Servant?) Up to maybe five years ago, I was vigorously anti-gun. Now I increasingly see the benefit of them. Think of how many of these maniacs would have been stopped by one gun-wielding member of the public.
I've never so much as fired a gun myself, or even held one.
As for dialogue-- I agree that this is not possible with militant Islam. I like Belloc's couplet:
Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight
But roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right.
It's notable that nobody has suggested the police were wrong to kill the latest London attackers-- and yet, I've heard so many people argue that violence and killing is always wrong in every situation whatsoever. Reality is dawning.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Jun 5, 2017 11:55:46 GMT
The principle here is quite simple. You forfeit you're right to private, retributive justice in return for a government that protection of your rights and security.
If your government breaches the social contract, by ignoring and minimising threats and jailing people who identify the threats and their causes as happens all over Western Europe these days - and I'm not exaggerating here - you are 100% justified in removing your government by force.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 5, 2017 12:18:48 GMT
Apparently even Thomas Hobbes, the arch-legitimist, said that a government had lost its legitimacy if it could not protect the populace.
I would not argue that people in the UK are at that point now, though. Not quite yet. A breakdown of public order would probably be even worse than the status quo.
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Post by cato on Jun 5, 2017 14:27:28 GMT
Classicalrepublican I fear your comments are bordering on extremism and am suprised to seem them openly advocated.
In a democracy that respects law we have only one method of changing things - the solely peaceful constitutional route and in extreme cases passive resistance to unjust laws.
In Ireland our state has made huge cuts to the Garda and Defence budgets and few have complained about this.I agree the state exists primarily to defend us physically from violence domestic or foreign. If it can't or won't do this we are in serious trouble.I agree the Uk and Irish states are currently failing but the solution is not to advocate violent rebellion but in having stronger defences and protection.
Why is Isis wrong in advocating violence but you aren't?
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Jun 6, 2017 12:16:48 GMT
This idea actually comes from liberalism.
When a government ceases to protect citizens' security and rights, and moreover intentionally so, it has become illegitimate. This is where the tipping point into extremism has occurred. When a government acts like this, it has violated the (small c) constitution - it has positioned itself outside of democracy.
Forcibly removing the government is the corrective to this extremism. It needn't necessarily be violent, but if the government resists its removal with violence, violently removing the government is justified.
Good governance requires active citizenship and active citizens should always be vigilant (in a non-pathological way) against he excesses of government.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 12:24:28 GMT
The Left, who hates us and who has taken over nearly every institution in our country, loves to see us rip each other apart.
Ireland is not under foreign occupation, Today's Irish government is democratically elected; the majority of the Irish people consent to it. If Irish people hate Ireland as much as the people who are intent on destroying it do, they will continue to vote for this type of government. Such is the way an ancient Christian culture walks itself and its children willingly to the gallows.
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 12:39:50 GMT
The Left, who hates us and who has taken over nearly every institution in our country, loves to see us rip each other apart. Ireland is not under foreign occupation, Today's Irish government is democratically elected; the majority of the Irish people consent to it. If Irish people hate Ireland as much as the people who are intent on destroying it do, they will continue to vote for this type of government. Such is the way an ancient Christian culture walks itself and its children willingly to the gallows. Which is why I am asking this question. I must reiterate this thread is not, I repeat not about advocating justified rebellion, but about discussing when is it right to obtain firearms and weapons contrary to the law of the land. We are not obligated to obey an unjust law as Christians, I am arguing about when does that standard apply? Do we actually have to wait until there are Trucks of Peace mowing down people on O'Connell's street or for there to be a massacre at the Belfast Opera House before we start taking measures to prepare for the defence of our families or should we just let ourselves be murdered? |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2017 13:05:22 GMT
I agree with both Classical Republican that the people have the ultimate right to remove a government, by force if necessary. It's what happened in the War of Independence.
And I agree with Servantofthechief that, in principle, citiziens have a right to disobey the law to defend themselves.
I wouldn't blame a Londoner, right now, who invested in a firearm, legal or illegal.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 13:06:49 GMT
The Left, who hates us and who has taken over nearly every institution in our country, loves to see us rip each other apart. Ireland is not under foreign occupation, Today's Irish government is democratically elected; the majority of the Irish people consent to it. If Irish people hate Ireland as much as the people who are intent on destroying it do, they will continue to vote for this type of government. Such is the way an ancient Christian culture walks itself and its children willingly to the gallows. Which is why I am asking this question. I must reiterate this thread is not, I repeat not about advocating justified rebellion, but about discussing when is it right to obtain firearms and weapons contrary to the law of the land. We are not obligated to obey an unjust law as Christians, I am arguing about when does that standard apply? Do we actually have to wait until there are Trucks of Peace mowing down people on O'Connell's street or for there to be a massacre at the Belfast Opera House before we start taking measures to prepare for the defence of our families or should we just let ourselves be murdered? There are two schools of thought on this question, a theme embodied in the film "The Mission." I don't know where I stand on it, and I think it's probably an area where people of good will can be of different minds. I do know that in Catholic teaching "life" (or "survival") per se is not the highest good. |
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 13:14:28 GMT
Which is why I am asking this question. I must reiterate this thread is not, I repeat not about advocating justified rebellion, but about discussing when is it right to obtain firearms and weapons contrary to the law of the land. We are not obligated to obey an unjust law as Christians, I am arguing about when does that standard apply? Do we actually have to wait until there are Trucks of Peace mowing down people on O'Connell's street or for there to be a massacre at the Belfast Opera House before we start taking measures to prepare for the defence of our families or should we just let ourselves be murdered? There are two schools of thought on this question, a theme embodied in the film "The Mission." I don't know where I stand on it, and I think it's probably an area where people of good will can be of different minds. I do know that in Catholic teaching "life" (or "survival") per se is not the highest good. True, but if I am married and have a family, as a man I am obligated before God first for my salvation, then to help in their salvation and then for their physical well being, if I achieve the first two, I have done well, indeed I have done what I was put on this Earth to do, but I will have failed them and failed God if I do not protect them from harm. (Unless of course, by their survival I jeopardise their salvation, in which case the first two duties supercede the third) Just because survival or physical wellbeing is not the highest good, does not stop it from being a good. In this case it is not a matter of whether or not the first two duties are jeapordised, but a matter of the state either being unwilling or unable to protect me and my family, and I am not adovcating or contemplating rebellion against my legitimate ruling authority, but rather I am concerned about my third duty of protecting my family's wellbeing and to keep them from harm. Am I not failing in that duty if I do nothing when there is real and present danger? Or does my duty of obedience to the secular law of the land supercede my duty as a man to defend my family in all cases, even cases were the authority does not perform its duty to protect us? |
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Post by Young Ireland on Jun 6, 2017 17:39:22 GMT
Intrinsically, there is nothing wrong with buying guns to defend yourself and your family, and indeed in the right context, can be salutary. My problem with Servant and Classical Republican's line of thinking is that they are applying this principle to the present-day Irish context, in which the risk of all-out invasion is minimal if non-existent. True, there is a great risk of isolated terror attacks, but this can be combated by greater funding for our intelligence services, the Gardai and the Army, not by the illegal acquisition of firearms. We do need to be careful here, as there might be somebody reading this who could inadvertently be inspired to take the law into their own hands: look at the mosque in Galway that was vandalised last night.
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 6, 2017 17:56:26 GMT
Intrinsically, there is nothing wrong with buying guns to defend yourself and your family, and indeed in the right context, can be salutary. My problem with Servant and Classical Republican's line of thinking is that they are applying this principle to the present-day Irish context, in which the risk of all-out invasion is minimal if non-existent. True, there is a great risk of isolated terror attacks, but this can be combated by greater funding for our intelligence services, the Gardai and the Army, not by the illegal acquisition of firearms. We do need to be careful here, as there might be somebody reading this who could inadvertently be inspired to take the law into their own hands: look at the mosque in Galway that was vandalised last night. Alright I can see your logic. But increased funding of the intelligence services and the police/military in other countries, most notably our neighbour in Britain, has only seemed to result in less civil freedom for the average citizen in the form of a big brother state and troops on the streets during peacetime. They do seem to be stopping more terrorist plots, true, but what is not mentioned is how these terrorist plots continue to increase in frequency as the years drag on. Our own government seems poised to go down the exact same route given absolutely nothing is being done about the root cause of the problem to begin with, (and indeed, it seems all indications are most national governments seem set on continuing the migrant crises or worse in the case of France, looking set to invite even more in) for goodness sake, most people won't even talk about the root problem at all. I am all for electing a government that will increase funding for policing and intelligence services to prevent these problems and hence make my initial question moot, but what is the honest likelihood of us even being able to elect such a government given the realities of our democratic systems with the role the media plays in it? The only people I have ever seen seriously address these issues is the National Party, that new party some guy in Limerick started, but which is basically unelectable just for being mildly nationalistic. I don't want to project, but I grew up with British soldiers marching up and down my street, chinooks flying overhead at night when you were trying to sleep, the occasional bomb going off in some nearby town, police raids, checkpoints, and officers carrying around machine guns and driving in armoured vans, the infamous 'Crimstoppers'. That was a borderline wartime situation and the British government at the time made no bones about the problem they were confronted with. How can I not see whats going on in Europe, with how close its getting to Ireland and how fast its becoming a reality, and not be reasonably concerned about this issue given we have such a weak, anaemic government and a system all but designed to prevent us from electing someone who can 'smash the system' like the Americans did with Trump? You were all there during the Lisbon treaty referendum and re-referendum I assume, as well as the media-Government blitz during the gay marriage referendum. You know how hard it is to actually get any honest conversation going in the public forum let alone getting the government to take any action about it. |
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