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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 25, 2018 20:20:09 GMT
When I set up this forum, I very much envisaged it as a "big tent" for conservatism (and I still do). I was expecting a few economic conservatives to post here, but rather to my surprise they never have. It would be interesting to know peoples' views on this subject.
Of course, it has often been pointed out that economic "conservatism" might just as well be called economic liberalism, since it is generally in favour of the free market and deregulation. Indeed, sometimes it's called "neoliberalism".
I don't understand economics myself, so I rarely comment on economic issues. I must admit this side of conservatism is one that doesn't interest me at all. I think I'm rather more centrist than right-wing on economic issues-- maybe even centre-left. I like the idea of nationalisation of key industries, especially transport.
One argument that DOES incline me somewhat towards a free market view is that it does limit the power of government. This interests me more in terms of free speech, freedom of religion, and other personal freedoms rather than economic freedoms. But perhaps economic freedoms are the underpinning.
People often use the term "socialism" as a blanket term for liberal-left-progressive streams of thought, but in my view, progressives may spout socialist rhetoric but don't take it at all seriously. Their goals are social and cultural, not economic.
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Post by cato on Nov 19, 2019 17:40:29 GMT
I would regard financial prudence as being a core conservative value. Much of our economic woes in the west have been due to borrowing more than we earn both as individuals and as societies and economies. Even "right wing" governments indulge in auction politics especially in Ireland but also in the current UK election campaign where Boris Johnson has ended austerity and started a spending splurge to win former Labour Brexiteers over.
The infamous Irish crash is commonly believed to be the fault of the banks who cost us roughly 60 billion euros in national debt. Unfortunately that ignores around 120 billion built up by government financial mismanagement and current spending without getting regular income increases. Greta Thunberg's Irish followers get into a lather over the climate crisis, wait until some one tells them of the approximately 45,000 national debt owed by everyone in Ireland for the financial errors of a decade ago. Despite paying billions in interest our overall national debt continues to grow.
I find it interesting how few social conservatives I know are fiscal conservatives. Many believe in increased spending but are vague about how we pay for that spending. Most Irish middle class liberals hold "right wing" views on the economy in theory but the current Fine Gael government has repeated most of the financial errors of the previous Fianna Fail government. When a crash occurs we will have precious little to borrow any more as we are effectively maxed out.
A society where young people are on low salaries with short term contracts and where it is becoming more and more impossible to buy a home or even to rent at a reasonable rate , is a tinder box. People with no stake in a society become disillusioned and may drift to radical leftist politics. The UK currently has a chance of embracing a far left party. I would not be suprised to see Sinn Fein offer a similar agenda in the near future.
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Post by Stephen on Nov 20, 2019 11:44:03 GMT
I think you are right to point out that economic "conservatism" might just as well be called economic liberalism today. Conservatism in America and the UK has long been characterized even before the fusion of the Reagan / Thatcher era politics by the principles of Enlightenment liberalism. Another way of looking at economic liberalism is a system built on usury and avarice.
As Catholic, I don't know how one can square being an economic liberal and Catholicism. I myself subscribe to Catholic Integralism which "is a tradition of thought that rejects the liberal separation of politics from concern with the end of human life, holding that political rule must order man to his final goal. Since, however, man has both a temporal and an eternal end, integralism holds that there are two powers that rule him: a temporal power and a spiritual power. And since man’s temporal end is subordinated to his eternal end the temporal power must be subordinated to the spiritual power."
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Post by cato on Nov 20, 2019 11:56:23 GMT
Those that lecture on the morality of economics rarely (never that I can recall) discuss a welfare system where even during a period of high employment the state continues to pay a large group of people unemployment benefits. I have no problem with a proper safety net but I would much prefer a model which was linked to what a worker paid previously in taxes and which would be more generous for a short period to help people get a new job.
There are people who can refuse work for decades and get paid by the state to do nothing. This is simply crazy. There may be people who are basically unemployable but laziness should never be subsidised by the state. The generous Irish welfare system will come under huge pressure in the next few decades and this expensive luxury will be consigned to history hopefully.
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Post by Tomas on Apr 15, 2020 15:54:40 GMT
Each and every so-called welfare systems that are dubiously built on a loose ground in massive debts will be difficult to defend either economically or morally? First, if only because that conservative core value of "financial prudence" simply says it goes against common sense to hurt common good of the nation, not only by spending more than is in the reserve but arguably also much more than is motivated by logical plans to maintain (at least it would seem so for one not in the know of national economy). Second, because state budget affects not only the state bureaucracy but in effect every citizen as well, and thus is not only a matter of theory but bitterly enough also of practise. Dependences can be necessary and wage slavery may be just a lazy word from the lower grassroot level, but as the saying goes "The one who is in debt is not free" then everyone gets their share of the slave mode if a whole state deliberately puts itself in such position. What would that be with a world where only a few promille of plutochrats were left free, while around 999 out of 1000 had to remain more or less "welfare slaves". Hardly an even ideal for any conservative, super-rich or not.
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Post by cato on Apr 15, 2020 16:27:09 GMT
The looming financial crisis might be a good opportunity to get rid of many of the NGOs subsidised by the Irish state. A UN official jokingly asked asked a recent rather large Irish delegation whether every one in Ireland worked in an NGO. Scrapping every quango won't save a lot of cashin the overall scheme of things but it will help eliminate leftist propagandists. Which is why it will probably never happen in the real world.
And then there is Michael D spinning poetry to Che Guevara in the park and costing us more than President Macron ..... life is strange and expensive in the post modern Celtic twilight.
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Post by Tomas on Apr 15, 2020 16:39:37 GMT
the real world. poetry to Che Guevara in the park and costing us more than President Macron ..... the post modern Celtic twilight. The cost of public entertainments in parks is another thing that makes one wonder about the limits, or lack of limits, when it comes to political spendings. Why should it be state sponsored at all? |
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Post by assisi on Apr 15, 2020 19:11:38 GMT
I was listening to an Irish economist talking recently about the economic trend of the last century in very general terms. Regarding the 2008 crash she said that the Germans were more likely to save for a new car and buy it outright having saved enough. Elsewhere in Europe most other Europeans were content to pay a small deposit and take out a loan or pay the car off over 3 or 4 years with plenty of interest added. This was one of the reasons that Germany was in a better place than most other EU countries when the crash happened.
Although much of the blame for profligate spending must go the government, banks and advertisers for allowing such easy credit, some of the blame must go to those who spend way above their means, often for luxuries they do not need.
It seems that, as well as working out a sound economic system, there is a great need to have a 'moral' populace who behave in a responsible way. The cardinal virtues of temperance and prudence would benefit us all greatly.
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Post by assisi on Apr 15, 2020 19:26:48 GMT
And then there is Michael D spinning poetry to Che Guevara in the park and costing us more than President Macron ..... life is strange and expensive in the post modern Celtic twilight. Definition of Leprechaun: They are usually depicted as little bearded men, wearing a coat and hat, who partake in mischief.........According to David Russell McAnally the leprechaun is the son of an "evil spirit" and a "degenerate fairy" and is "not wholly good nor wholly evil". I've cherry picked the definition, but you get my drift. Nothing about Che Guevara though.  |
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Post by darynak on Jan 27, 2021 18:12:14 GMT
Seeing that the Irish economy is so important to many people, I have decided to carry out some research as part of my degree in TCD. I would really appreciate the input of the people on this forum- especially from the conservative side, as many of my participants are very liberal. If you're interested in contributing, I'm simply looking at attitudes towards borrowing money/debt. It takes around ten minutes!
To participate you need to copy this and put this - tcdecon.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_dmnjMVJqX8EGUSh into your browser. It's completely anonymous (no IP tracking) and you can follow up later to see the results of the study.
Thank you!
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