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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 26, 2018 15:45:10 GMT
There seems to be a real surge of Irish populism in our time, what with the foundation of the Irext party and the National Party, successful YouTube channels such as Gemma O'Doherty and Grand Torino and Dave Cullen, and various other indications of growth (albeit small compared to the Irish mainstream).
One thing that interests and rather concerns me, however, is that this wave of populism seems to have brought with it very little interest in Irish culture, meaning high culture and folk culture. A lot of the populists look back to Patrick Pearse, but they don't seem to share Pearse's concern for the Irish language and Irish culture in general. The priority of the populists seems to be to get out of the E.U. (or at least, become more loosely associated with it), halt mass migration, resist against Islam, and defend social conservatism and Christianity (or cultural Christianity). But reviving Irish national culture seems to be very low on the list of priorities, beyond the cúpla focail.
Perhaps this is simply because they see Ireland's very existence as a nation under threat, and our culture and traditions have to be low on the list of priorities. But it seems a shame to me.
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séamus (on his father's phone)
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Post by séamus (on his father's phone) on Dec 27, 2018 6:41:32 GMT
There seems to be a real surge of Irish populism in our time, what with the foundation of the Irext party and the National Party, successful YouTube channels such as Gemma O'Doherty and Grand Torino and Dave Cullen, and various other indications of growth (albeit small compared to the Irish mainstream). One thing that interests and rather concerns me, however, is that this wave of populism seems to have brought with it very little interest in Irish culture, meaning high culture and folk culture. A lot of the populists look back to Patrick Pearse, but they don't seem to share Pearse's concern for the Irish language and Irish culture in general. The priority of the populists seems to be to get out of the E.U. (or at least, become more loosely associated with it), halt mass migration, resist against Islam, and defend social conservatism and Christianity (or cultural Christianity). But reviving Irish national culture seems to be very low on the list of priorities, beyond the cúpla focail. Perhaps this is simply because they see Ireland's very existence as a nation under threat, and our culture and traditions have to be low on the list of priorities. But it seems a shame to me. (finding it a bit hard to participate with my current phone,)but I read about a new-ish populist school opening up in a former monastery in the Apennine mountains in Italy, led by a confrere of Nick Bannon. Worth looking up |
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Post by kj on Dec 30, 2018 18:06:04 GMT
Hi, folks. Been a while since I posted here - had a tumultuous year personally so was occupied.
While it's great to see this small build in Irish populism, if the language isn't central I just don't know that it can have much staying power. Having a non-English first language offers some small sort of resistance to the worst of Anglo-American culture and nihilism, without it, we're defenceless. If they were one magic wish I could have for the country it would be for Gaeilge to be the first tongue and English a tiny minority!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 30, 2018 18:17:18 GMT
Hi, folks. Been a while since I posted here - had a tumultuous year personally so was occupied. While it's great to see this small build in Irish populism, if the language isn't central I just don't know that it can have much staying power. Having a non-English first language offers some small sort of resistance to the worst of Anglo-American culture and nihilism, without it, we're defenceless. If they were one magic wish I could have for the country it would be for Gaeilge to be the first tongue and English a tiny minority! Good to hear from you again, kj, and I hope the tumultuous year was not traumatic. Even if we revived the Irish language, it's hard for me to imagine that we would cease to use English as a first language, so I don't think it would necessarily afford any protection from globalization. In all honesty, I believe globalization is unstoppable (although I'm all for efforts to resist it), and I think we have to start thinking of how we can preserve our identity despite it. I totally agree with you about Irish being the main priority for the language-- at least, culturally. There was a meme on Facebook where people were asked which one of various different priorities they would wish for first, when it came to Ireland. (It was a conservative meme.) To me, reviving the language would definitely be numero uno. (Well, making Ireland Catholic again would be numero uno, but that wasn't on the list anyway.) |
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Post by Marybrigid on Dec 30, 2018 20:02:30 GMT
Both are important to me; I would see them in separate spheres in that the Faith concerns our immortal souls and the language is our identity as a people in this world and a link with our ancestors I would see them both as worth our attention and restoration.
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Post by cato on Dec 30, 2018 21:28:23 GMT
Traditionally Irish nationalism formally rested on three pillars ; catholicism , the Revival of Irish and the recovery of the North.
All three of those pillars have collapsed to some extent as badges of common Irish identity. I do think the Irish language relatively speaking is in the best condition , compared to the other two.
Irish is growing in many localities as a (large) minority alternative to the catholic run system. I know some Gaelscoileanna want church pastoral involvement but some of them are pretty secular and progressive. This aspect of Irish language schools is often overlooked. Similarly the advent of TV4 in Irish doesn't appear to have led to any growth in "traditional" Irish views. It seems to me that the Gaeltacht is as secular as the rest of Ireland.
Looking back on my education I actually suspect now one or two militant teachers hated Irish and had a mission to turn their pupils away off it!
Irish was seen by some in the past as a magical prophalyctic against modernity. It isn't. Secular propaganda in Irish is just as obnoxious as secular propaganda in English.
Catholicism was also seen as a bulwark against modernity. Now it's a cheerleader for modernity.
Ireland was a late comer to liberal secularism. We will be last bastion of political correctness and diversity after other countries wake up.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 30, 2018 21:54:00 GMT
Traditionally Irish nationalism formally rested on three pillars ; catholicism , the Revival of Irish and the recovery of the North. All three of those pillars have collapsed to some extent as badges of common Irish identity. I do think the Irish language relatively speaking is in the best condition , compared to the other two. Irish is growing in many localities as a (large) minority alternative to the catholic run system. I know some Gaelscoileanna want church pastoral involvement but some of them are pretty secular and progressive. This aspect of Irish language schools is often overlooked. Similarly the advent of TV4 in Irish doesn't appear to have led to any growth in "traditional" Irish views. It seems to me that the Gaeltacht is as secular as the rest of Ireland. Looking back on my education I actually suspect now one or two militant teachers hated Irish and had a mission to turn their pupils away off it! Irish was seen by some in the past as a magical prophalyctic against modernity. It isn't. Secular propaganda in Irish is just as obnoxious as secular propaganda in English. Catholicism was also seen as a bulwark against modernity. Now it's a cheerleader for modernity. Ireland was a late comer to liberal secularism. We will be last bastion of political correctness and diversity after other countries wake up. Great points, Cato. I have had a love-hate relationship with the Irish language through my life. All my primary and secondary education was in Irish language schools, which turned me against the language at various different times. Part of this was sheer childish and adolescent petulance, but some of it was more reasonable-- for instance, I perceived that many Irish language enthusiasts were liberal-secular, as you describe, and it made no sense to me that you could be in favour of ONE tradition but against tradition in general. Although I was non-religious and even a socialist at this time, I was always a cultural conservative and a reactionary. I wanted to go back to Middle Earth, never mind the fifties! Even today, when my settled view for many years is that the Irish language is a priceless cultural heritage, I still have an instinctive negative reaction when I hear somebody speaking in Irish without expecting it! |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 30, 2018 21:59:07 GMT
And it's a good point about having our own language not being any defence against secular modernity. I don't know if it was you on this forum, but I heard someone point this out somewhere and thought: "Gee, that's true." I mean, look at the Dutch. They have their own language but they couldn't be more modern-liberal-secular etc. (Although, rather surprisingly, there is a "Bible belt" in the Netherlands.)
Anyway, Europe as a whole, with its multiplicity of languages, seems far more liberal-secular than the overwhelmingly monoglot USA.
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Post by cato on Dec 30, 2018 22:26:09 GMT
And it's a good point about having our own language not being any defence against secular modernity. I don't know if it was you on this forum, but I heard someone point this out somewhere and thought: "Gee, that's true." I mean, look at the Dutch. They have their own language but they couldn't be more modern-liberal-secular etc. (Although, rather surprisingly, there is a "Bible belt" in the Netherlands.) Anyway, Europe as a whole, with its multiplicity of languages, seems far more liberal-secular than the overwhelmingly monoglot USA. At the risk of sounding like Pope Francis and our beloved President, who like quoting themselves, the above sounds like one of my lines alright. 😊 |
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Post by cato on Dec 30, 2018 22:35:55 GMT
I was recently thinking of one teacher I had , a young graduate who used to teach by screaming at us and reducing 12 year old boys to tears. Teaching the various irregularities of Irish to uncomprehending anglos in Irish was sheer lunacy. I would like to ask her now if I ever come across her how did she imagine this teaching strategy would ever succeed.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 30, 2018 23:07:18 GMT
I was recently thinking of one teacher I had , a young graduate who used to teach by screaming at us and reducing 12 year old boys to tears. Teaching the various irregularities of Irish to uncomprehending anglos in Irish was sheer lunacy. I would like to ask her now if I ever come across her how did she imagine this teaching strategy would ever succeed. Well, I never experienced that kind of treatment. But Irish was associated with compulsion and shame-- kids who spoke English had to wear a badge with a B on it in my primary school. Ha! And I was always bad at it, which prejudiced me against it. I've heard someone describe compulsory Irish thus: "The Irish people gave the responsibility for preserving the language to the government, and the government gave it to the department of Education, and the department of Education gave it to the teachers, and the teachers gave it to the schoolchildren". I've heard that membership of the Gaelic League plummeted by ninety per cent after independence. Despite all this, I am still in favour of compulsory Irish. It made me hate Irish at certain times, but at least I learned some. Without it, I don't think I would have learned any of it. I have one colleague, a very clever guy, who told me his Irish oral examination in the Leaving Cert just consisted of him looking at the examiner and hopelessly shrugging. It was so bad that the examiner said, at the end: "Don't let this affect how you see yourself." I think compulsion has its uses! |
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Post by kj on Dec 31, 2018 10:33:50 GMT
Good point about the Irish language not being a guarantor of anything traditional. I went through one of my periodic bouts of 'must resurrect my Gailege' about 18 months ago and thought it'd be useful to watch a drama series on TG4 to help me along. It was set in a small village, but the plot was like any US or UK drama: sex, violence, crime, all presented as glamorous and exciting of course. The final straw was the presence of a dwarf villain with an English accent and his moronic henchman, who both looked as if they had wandered in from 'Game of Thrones'! I stopped watching pretty quickly....
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 31, 2018 10:45:21 GMT
Good point about the Irish language not being a guarantor of anything traditional. I went through one of my periodic bouts of 'must resurrect my Gailege' about 18 months ago and thought it'd be useful to watch a drama series on TG4 to help me along. It was set in a small village, but the plot was like any US or UK drama: sex, violence, crime, all presented as glamorous and exciting of course. The final straw was the presence of a dwarf villain with an English accent and his moronic henchman, who both looked as if they had wandered in from 'Game of Thrones'! I stopped watching pretty quickly.... I was going through a bout of Irish language fervour at the same time! And now I am feeling the urge again... Gaeilgeoirs actually seem to go out of their way to prove there is nothing traditional about the language, that it is fully compatible with all the perversion, shallowness and banality of modern culture. |
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Post by cato on Dec 31, 2018 13:17:55 GMT
Good point about the Irish language not being a guarantor of anything traditional. I went through one of my periodic bouts of 'must resurrect my Gailege' about 18 months ago and thought it'd be useful to watch a drama series on TG4 to help me along. It was set in a small village, but the plot was like any US or UK drama: sex, violence, crime, all presented as glamorous and exciting of course. The final straw was the presence of a dwarf villain with an English accent and his moronic henchman, who both looked as if they had wandered in from 'Game of Thrones'! I stopped watching pretty quickly.... I was going through a bout of Irish language fervour at the same time! And now I am feeling the urge again... Gaeilgeoirs actually seem to go out of their way to prove there is nothing traditional about the language, that it is fully compatible with all the perversion, shallowness and banality of modern culture. There is an argument I read somewhere that the Irish were the first pragmatic modernists in the way they ruthlessly abandoned Irish after the famine in order to prepare their children for emigration to Britain and the wider Anglosphere. Irish was firmly associated with backwardness and poverty. Similarly 19th century Irish catholicism was influenced by Victorian notions around temperance , chastity and the notion of respectability. Reforming catholic clerics opposed wake rituals , holy well festivities and local pilgrimages especially if alcohol was involved. This movement saw itself as competing with protestantism to show that catholics were socially as good as, if not superior to protestants. Today there may be a similar process under way to show how secular , diverse , tolerant and European we are. |
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Post by kj on Dec 31, 2018 13:40:22 GMT
What depresses me the most about Ireland is that we are always 20 years behind the curve. It strikes me that Ireland is at its peak of Liberal - Global - Multicultural saturation while the rest of Europe is waking up smelling the coffee. I despair...
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