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Post by Tomas on Dec 13, 2019 6:31:39 GMT
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Post by Stephen on Dec 13, 2019 13:43:31 GMT
I am no fan of Labour or Mr Corbyn. But this anti-Semitism claim is a load of rubbish. They are anti Israel/Zionism. Sadly now a days if anyone says anything against either they are lambasted as a nazis, far right, anti-Semitic or any number of things. Israel uniquely attracts a band of critics who never admit they may have less than pure motives . They rarely have the same strength of feeling about brutal Islamic states or the widespread slaughter of Moslems by Islamic governments for some strange reason. It is either naive or malicious to deny the growth of Jew hating in Europe. Many synagogues in Europe require armed police guards. I was shocked to see this in Berlin a few years ago. Jewish graves are regularly desecrated and many Jews do not wear skull caps in public for fear of assault. Some of this prejudice is from the far right. Some shamefully comes from traditionalist catholic circles. The Corbyn variety comes from a left that vilifies Israel. There are also electoral advantages in appealing to Islamic communities in the UK. The Jews in contrast are electorally negligible. The argument that honest critics of Israel are only opposed to "Zionism" ignores the religious basis for a promised land for the Jews. Many critics deny the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That is antisemitic. Claiming that concerns about Corbyn are "rubbish" is strange. Why is he so reluctant to say Jew hating is wrong? Any normal leader would have no problem with saying this. If the Jewish chief Rabbi calls Corbyn out as anti Semitic or as a sneaking regarder for those who hate Jews I have no doubt his fears are real. I have to say I am very glad Mr Corbyn is on his way out of the Labour Party. Israel uniquely attracts a band of critics who never admit they may have less than pure motives. They rarely have the same strength of feeling about brutal Islamic states or the widespread slaughter of Moslems by Islamic governments for some strange reason. I image the main growth of anti-Jewish sentiment has come from the mass migrant of Islamic men to Europe. Of course, we have to remember there is also growing anti-Christian sentiment in Europe as well and is chronically unreported. I also reject the idea that the Jewish false religion can not be criticised and rejected (False truth/Error has no Rights). The Jews are not electorally negligible, they have a massive support base amongst "Christians" and are a very powerful lobby in the UK. The Jews today are not the Jews of the old testament and there covenant with God is broken and rejected logos."Many critics deny the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That is antisemitic. " Of course it is not antisemitic to say that Isreal should not be a state-run by "Jewish Law". Would you say it is anti-Christian to say Ireland has the right to exist as a Jewish state! "Claiming that concerns about Corbyn are "rubbish" is strange." It is rubbish because Israel seems to be the only country in the world that one can not criticise without being called an antisemitic/fascist/ nazi / etc. Why can you not want to see political change in Israel without being called theses thing? |
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Post by cato on Dec 13, 2019 14:27:02 GMT
Stephen
I have to say I am very glad Mr Corbyn is on his way out of the Labour Party.
Cato
Delighted to hear that! The man was once seen as a Looney left cliche but ended up as leader of the main opposition party and a potential prime minister who could have done great damage at home and abroad.
[brStephen
]I image the main growth of anti-Jewish sentiment has come from the mass migrant of Islamic men to Europe. Of course, we have to remember there is also growing anti-Christian sentiment in Europe as well and is chronically unreported. I also reject the idea that the Jewish false religion can not be criticised and rejected (False truth/Error has no Rights). Stephen
Cato
I wholeheartedly agree with your remarks about extreme Islamic anti semitism which is probably linked to anti Christian violence and prejudice. I see this as two sides of one coin. Islamic imperialism in the Middle East , North Africa and even in southern Europe has a long history of persecuting and humiliating Christians and Jews.
Why are you criticising Judaism in particular ? Do you criticise Hinduism and Buddhism which also persecute Christians often the most poorest and vulnerable members of their societies.
Stephen
The Jews are not electorally negligible, they have a massive support base amongst "Christians" and are a very powerful lobby in the UK.
Cato
In the USA they have significant political power and clout . The biggest Jewish community outside Israel is in tge USA . In the UK much much less. I 'll check the numbers later but Moslems easily dwarf Jews in numbers , culturally and in media influence in Britain .
Stephen
The Jews today are not the Jews of the old testament and there covenant with God is broken and rejected logos."
Cato
Can you name a living catholic theologian who holds this view? To quote the Roman Canon of Mass "Abraham our father in faith. Our Lord freely choose to be be born a Jew , from a Jewish mother and lived and died in that faith. Pope Benedict has written much on the catholic attitude to Judaism and is a sure guide in this as well other catholic theological truths.
[brStephen
]Many critics deny the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. That is antisemitic. " Of course it is not antisemitic to say that Isreal should not be a state-run by "Jewish Law". Would you say it is anti-Christian to say Ireland has the right to exist as a Jewish state!
Cato
That last sentence is just silly. Ireland is not Jewish. Ireland should be run as the Irish homeland. Why can't the Jews have a homeland in the historic land of biblical Israel? The Palestinian Moslems should also have a homeland . That probably involves two states in the former state of Palestine.
"Stephen.
Claiming that concerns about Corbyn are "rubbish" is strange." It is rubbish because Israel seems to be the only country in the world that one can not criticise without being called an antisemitic/fascist/ nazi / etc. Why can you not want to see political change in Israel without being called theses thing?
[/quote][/quote]
Cato
What does political change in Israel mean? Israel is a vibrant democracy. One of the few in the region. Why do foreigners constantly think they should have a view on Israel which Israelis are obliged to take on board. If Israelis did the reverse I would think we would tell them to sling their hook very promptly. And rightly so.
There are far right wing supporters anti semitism as well as the Islamic inspired source. Some are pagan blood and soil stormfront freaks. Others are from a catholic source that ended up supporting Marshal Petain in France and the fascist Ustache in Croatia. The results were not pretty.
Corbyn represents the large left wing dislike of the modern Jewish state. Last night the UK electorate gave him a resounding kick in the rear.
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Post by cato on Dec 13, 2019 14:44:45 GMT
The result last night was a democratic revolution .
The left were crushed Labour got its worse result since 1935. The Tories got their majority from working class people voting to complete Brexit.
The Remain/ people's referendum lobby who have dominated the last three years are in disarray. Their cause looks defeated conclusively. They got their people's vote but the people didn't vote their way.
A strongnationalist identity has emerged in England , Scotand and indeed in Northern Ireland were nationalist MPs outnumber unionists for the first time since partition. That's a huge pychological historical moment. Those who push socially liberal identity politics are aghast that another older form of identity politics is back.
One year ago Boris Johnson was widely written off as a fool and a failure. He was a back bench MP. His political comeback is an astounding example of how to achieve high office. He has the biggest conservative majority since the Thatcher years and an opposition in complete confusion. As a classicist he will no doubt be aware of hubris and nemesis. Still this is the hour of his conclusive victory .
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Post by Séamus on Dec 14, 2019 10:30:35 GMT
The result last night was a democratic revolution ...etc... A strongnationalist identity has emerged in England , Scotand and indeed in Northern Ireland were nationalist MPs outnumber unionists for the first time since partition. That's a huge pychological historical moment. Those who push socially liberal identity politics are aghast that another older form of identity politics is back. ..etc.. . I find it curious that a traditionally Unionist seat would vote in a Sinn Féin candidate who,as the defeated sitting member remarked,won't represent them in Westminster anyway. Perhaps DUP's balance of power is beginning to look like it was highly misused. If,per chance in the future,an independent Northern Ireland needs to work a free-trade agreement with an independent Scotland (call it the Iona Accord?)there are historical precedents : "Although the export of live cattle from Ireland was prohibited,in the interests of British farming,through most of the 17th and 18th Centuries,the short sea-crossings from North-East Ireland enabled dealers to ship them to southern Scotland. The embargo was lifted in 1765 and by the early 19th Century many thousands of cattle were reaching Portpatrick and being driven to the fairs at Dumfries and Carlisle and further afield to Barnet in Hertfordshire and St Faiths near Norwich. Many Irish harvesters and other summer migrants followed the trails trodden by Irish cattle and their drivers" Cf Irish Folk Ways, Estyn Evans 1957 A paragraph or so later,speaking of his time of writing : "one of the remarkable features of an Irish fair is the quantities of old clothes and boots on display and I am told that there is considerable export of second-hand clothes from Scotland to the country fairs of Northern Ireland. Sir Walter Scott commented on this trade in 1825" And keep the Tunnocks coming. |
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Post by Stephen on Dec 23, 2019 8:49:38 GMT
CatoI wholeheartedly agree with your remarks about extreme Islamic antisemitism which is probably linked to anti-Christian violence and prejudice. I see this as two sides of one coin. Islamic imperialism in the Middle East, North Africa and even in southern Europe has a long history of persecuting and humiliating Christians and Jews. Why are you criticising Judaism in particular? Do you criticise Hinduism and Buddhism which also persecute Christians often the poorest and vulnerable members of their societies? StephenI Criticise all false religions, but not equally. I would say I give most criticism to Protestantism than the following with dissenting amounts of time spent, the new age/Eastern spirituality/Paganism, Islam, atheism, Judaism, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, etc. Protestantism and then Secular spirituality because they are people I come into contact living in Northern Ireland. I am not criticizing Judaism, but the Israeli state and Zionism. So-called antisemitism in the Labour party is Anti-Zionism. Of Course, there is probably some antisemitism in that party but I would say they have plenty of Anti-Christian members as well (socialism and Religion don't have a good past). CatoIn the USA they have significant political power and clout. The biggest Jewish community outside Israel is in the USA. In the UK much much less. I 'll check the numbers later but Moslems easily dwarf Jews in numbers, culturally and in media influence in Britain. StephenI agree with you that Israel and Zionism have significant political power and clout. I would say the current Republican foreign policies are very much based on Isreally interest. I think you would be surprised how much influence Isreal has in the UK.An undercover documentary was filmed a few years ago about the goings-on of Isreal and this is only the tip of the iceberg. www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/StephenThe Jews today are not the Jews of the old testament and there covenant with God is broken and rejected logos." CatoCan you name a living catholic theologian who holds this view? To quote the Roman Canon of Mass "Abraham our father in faith. Our Lord freely choose to be be born a Jew , from a Jewish mother and lived and died in that faith. Pope Benedict has written much on the catholic attitude to Judaism and is a sure guide in this as well other catholic theological truths. StephenI would look to the Church and her teaching rather than modern "theologians". I'm interested in why a modern theologian is specified as the Church has existed for more than 60 years. I am not questioning the following "Abraham our father in faith. Our Lord freely chooses to be born a Jew, from a Jewish mother and lived and died in that faith." Jesus spoke of the new covenant as He instituted the Eucharist. He was born into the old law and lived according to it as you say. The reality of His passion and death cannot be separated from the Eucharist. So one can the New Covenant began at the Last Supper. The old Covenant ended when Christ was Crucified on Calvary. The Church has always prayed for Jews to lift the vale from there eyes. An example of this is the Good Friday prayers. "Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever. Amen." CatoThat last sentence is just silly. Ireland is not Jewish. Ireland should be run as the Irish homeland. Why can't the Jews have a homeland in the historic land of biblical Israel? The Palestinian Moslems should also have a homeland . That probably involves two states in the former state of Palestine. StephenThe Zionists stole the land for one. In the 1920s the population was roughly 11.5% Jew 9.5% Christian 79% Muslim In 1950, 30 years later 87.8% of the population was Jewish. This is wrong and unlawful. As a Catholic Irishman, this sickens me and is no different than what the English did in there " plantations". CatoWhat does political change in Israel mean? Israel is a vibrant democracy. One of the few in the region. Why do foreigners constantly think they should have a view on Israel which Israelis are obliged to take on board. If Israelis did the reverse I would think we would tell them to sling their hook very promptly. And rightly so. StephenI find it laughable that you think Israel does not try to influence Geopolitics (I'm not talking about normal diplomacy). I wish the Kingdom of Jerusalem was restored, but this is not going to happen and I usually do not get too involved in this subject. The reason we are discussing it is because of interference in the UK general election.
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Post by cato on Dec 23, 2019 21:02:29 GMT
Thank you Stephen for that response which I will reply to in a few days in detail.
Two left wing Irish Times journalists also claimed the Zionists helped swing the election. One crudely refered to roaring Zionist monsters. The other distanced himself and said it was a Mossad plot.
As the original theme of this thread was the UK election I would prefer to believe English working class people who voted Tory were not duped by Israeli intelligence but were mighty angry at being treated like fools by an arrogant remainer parliament and media for the last 3 years. They had their say on the 13th.
Conservatism claims to be a common sense ideology. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Zionism I think the Tory victory was really not that complicated to explain.
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Post by Stephen on Dec 26, 2019 20:04:52 GMT
Thank you Stephen for that response which I will reply to in a few days in detail. Two left wing Irish Times journalists also claimed the Zionists helped swing the election. One crudely refered to roaring Zionist monsters. The other distanced himself and said it was a Mossad plot. As the original theme of this thread was the UK election I would prefer to believe English working class people who voted Tory were not duped by Israeli intelligence but were mighty angry at being treated like fools by an arrogant remainer parliament and media for the last 3 years. They had their say on the 13th. Conservatism claims to be a common sense ideology. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Zionism I think the Tory victory was really not that complicated to explain. I look forward to your response and agree with your reasoning why Boris and the torys won the election |
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Post by cato on Jan 3, 2020 17:12:18 GMT
I buy the Guardian once a year usually to have a laugh after a prominent liberal left setback. From the December 14 edition we learn only 25% of Tory Mps are female. That's 87 MPs for a party that has produced the only two female British prime minister's to date. The Liberal Democrats have 64% female representation ( 7 out of 11). They did however lose their intensely annoying female leader Jo Swinston, who had speculated on being a Liberal prime minister along with 10 other seats.
Meanwhile the Greens are the most woke party of all with one woman MP (100% Female representation). BAME MPs are something we will soon hear about in Ireland. A BAME is a Black and Minority Ethnic. Other than An Gay Taoiseach who is doubly woke I can't think of any BAME TDS. Expect to hear much more about BAMES in the coming Irish general election.
I wonder do BAMES rhyme with DAMES?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 22, 2020 11:55:30 GMT
I buy the Guardian once a year usually to have a laugh after a prominent liberal left setback. I'm shocked, shocked! I have to admit I'm really hoping the male candidate wins the Labour leadership race for the same reason. Once you start demanding minority representations according to quota, where do you stop? It seems arbitrary to leave it at skin colour and gender. There are so many other oppressed minorities! |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 22, 2020 12:52:49 GMT
Once you start demanding minority representations according to quota, where do you stop? It seems arbitrary to leave it at skin colour and gender. There are so many other oppressed minorities! Easy way out: install the old model Polish regiment where every single person is given the power of a sacrosanct veto! Solid stalemate guarantee in the bargain :-D |
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Post by cato on Jan 22, 2020 22:29:46 GMT
I find it hard to deal with the issues you raise as you make so many points that I disagree with! I am going to attempt to address your points in two sections. Here I look at your "secular" case against Israel.
Stephen
The Zionists stole the land for one.
In the 1920s the population was roughly
11.5% Jew
9.5% Christian
79% Muslim
In 1950, 30 years later 87.8% of the population was Jewish.
This is wrong and unlawful. As a Catholic Irishman, this sickens me and is no different than what the English did in there " plantations".
Cato
The land we call Israel/Palestine has been occupied by almost a score of occupiers since the birth of Christ. The last internationally recognised rulers were the British under a league of nations mandate. The U.N. partitioned the Holy Land between Jews and Moslems a deal the local Moslems egged on by Arab powers rejected with all out war In 1948. The Zionists did not " steal the land ". I suspect you may not like the British mandate in Palestine that they abandoned in panic. The previous owners of Palestine prior to British rule were the Ottoman Turks who ruled for roughly 300 years. Perhaps they are the real owners of the Israeli state?
[brStephen ]I find it laughable that you think Israel does not try to influence Geopolitics (I'm not talking about normal diplomacy).[br
Cato - I never said the Israelis do not try to influence geopolitics. They do. So does every state with any real power on earth. It's their right and duty.
]I wish the Kingdom of Jerusalem was restored, but this is not going to happen and I usually do not get too involved in this subject.
The reason we are discussing it is because of interference in the UK general election.
[/quote]
Cato - I do believe that in some way , unknown to us the coming of Christ will be linked with the land of Israel and specifically Jerusalem. The Jews await the Messiah. We await him for the second time. Either way he will come back as he promised. Hair splitting on this issue is ridiculous given the vast amount of atheism and religious indifference in our world and sadly in our own land.
Your remarks about Jewish/Zionist influence on the UK election were echoed on Twitter by two vicious anti catholic journalists. I know you don't share their world view in most cases but it is disturbing Some Catholics believe this poison. Some one once said the far left and the far right sometimes go so far to the extremes they eventually join hands.
I 'll post later in some of the more religious themes you touch on. Thanks for your patience.
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Post by cato on Jan 27, 2020 15:15:48 GMT
Hi Stephen. Here are my second set of thoughts in some of the remarks you made in December last on Zionism /Judaism. Stephen I Criticise all false religions, but not equally. I would say I give most criticism to Protestantism than the following with dissenting amounts of time spent, the new age/Eastern spirituality/Paganism, Islam, atheism, Judaism, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, etc. Protestantism and then Secular spirituality because they are people I come into contact living in Northern Ireland. Cato - the biggest threat to the faith today is not the hodge potch of religions you mention but the dramatic collapse within Catholicism especially in our land. Ex Catholics may soon be the biggest religion in Ireland. I would prefer some religion rather than nothing or hostility from barely catechised former Catholics. Stephen I am not criticizing Judaism, but the Israeli state and Zionism. So-called antisemitism in the Labour party is Anti-Zionism. Of Course, there is probably some antisemitism in that party but I would say they have plenty of Anti-Christian members as well (socialism and Religion don't have a good past). Cato Judaism and Zionism overlap in their desire for a Jewish state in Israel with Jerusalem as its capital. Many Zionists were originally secular and left wing which is ironic seeing how virtually all the left now dispise them. I find it strange how non Jews are able to confidently state what Jews believe even when it contradicts what most Israeli Jews actually do believe. It's like secular westerners confidently telling us Islam is really all about peace tolerance and diversity! StephenI agree with you that Israel and Zionism have significant political power and clout. I would say the current Republican foreign policies are very much based on Isreally interest. I think you would be surprised how much influence Isreal has in the UK.An undercover documentary was filmed a few years ago about the goings-on of Isreal and this is only the tip of the iceberg. www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/Stephen[/
Cato Aljazerra are hardly an impartial news site. There is a thriving anti Semitic industry in the Arab media media unfortunately. The vile and ludicrous Protocols of the Elders of Zion are openly promoted and published throughout the middle East. Israel has much less influence in the UK than say Saudi Arabia which has huge arms contracts with British Aerospace going back decades. Indeed several official reports critical of the Saudis have been suppressed publically by recent UK government's on national security grounds.
Stephen
The Jews today are not the Jews of the old testament and there covenant with God is broken and rejected logos."
Cato - It is incredibly arrogant to state this. God promised to be faithful to his people for ever. Pope Benedict has written much on this issue. He is well worth reading.
Cato
Can you name a living catholic theologian who holds this view?
Stephen
I would look to the Church and her teaching rather than modern "theologians". I'm interested in why a modern theologian is specified as the Church has existed for more than 60 years.
Cato
The best guide to the Churches teaching on the Jews is the Catechism and the writings of Pope Benedict (still living). The church did modify its teaching in Vatican II largely because of the diabolical attempt by the Nazis to wipe out the Jewish race. Sadly some Catholics and clergy collaborated in this and attempted to justify the indefensible.
Stephen
r]I am not questioning the following "Abraham our father in faith. Our Lord freely chooses to be born a Jew, from a Jewish mother and lived and died in that faith."
Jesus spoke of the new covenant as He instituted the Eucharist. He was born into the old law and lived according to it as you say.
The reality of His passion and death cannot be separated from the Eucharist. So one can the New Covenant began at the Last Supper. The old Covenant ended when Christ was Crucified on Calvary.
The Church has always prayed for Jews to lift the vale from there eyes. An example of this is the Good Friday prayers. "Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever. Amen."
Cato
I note Stephen that your quotation from the Good Friday Liturgy (Traditional rite) for the conversation of the Jews is the former version which was explicitly changed by Pope Benedict on February 4 2008.
The current translation is ; Let us pray for the Jews: that our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts: so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ , the saviour of all Mankind... Let us pray
Almighty and everlasting God, who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth: graciously grant that when the fullness of the Gentiles shall come in to your church , all of Israel shall be saved. Through Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I hope we can pray that prayer in common.
If you wish to continue this debate maybe we could have a specific thread devoted to Judaism/Zionism and Catholicism? |
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Post by Séamus on Jan 28, 2020 1:27:44 GMT
What is to be made of Lord Greaves telling the House of Lords that Britain's citizens are crying themselves to sleep and generally mourning at the leaving of the EU?
He also hinted that it smacked of Nazism- "the day after the referendum people had their windows put in". A similar claim was apparently made by Tomas Keneally (IrishAustralian writer[Schindler's Ark and Great Shame, about the Potato Famine]) at the start of Pauline Hanson's career, evidently making a claim that she was leading her country on the road to Auschwitz, which seems ridiculous in hindsight as the unintelligent woman who only barely got herself elected twice to date could never emulate Hitler if she did want to. Fortunately.
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Post by cato on Jan 28, 2020 10:45:53 GMT
What is to be made of Lord Greaves telling the House of Lords that Britain's citizens are crying themselves to sleep and generally mourning at the leaving of the EU? He also hinted that it smacked of Nazism- "the day after the referendum people had their windows put in". A similar claim was apparently made by Tomas Keneally (IrishAustralian writer[Schindler's Ark and Great Shame, about the Potato Famine]) at the start of Pauline Hanson's career, evidently making a claim that she was leading her country on the road to Auschwitz, which seems ridiculous in hindsight as the unintelligent woman who only barely got herself elected twice to date could never emulate Hitler if sheu did want to. Fortunately. Those remarks you quoted Stephen are utter nonsense. The December election was in many ways the confirmation of the original referendum.With his massive majority in parliament Johnston can implement that decision. The almost complete rejection of the most vocal remainer MPs was an added bonus. History will be made on January 31st as the UK becomes the first large state to leave the EU and regain its national sovereignty. It is sad for the EU and bad for Ireland as we lose our closest ally in the bloc. I have heard very little comment on who we will chose to ally with now. This question of course will never come up in our farcical 2020 make believe Irish general election. |
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