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Post by Stephen on Apr 20, 2021 8:27:44 GMT
A place to discuss Green Conservatism / Traditionalism.
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Post by Stephen on Apr 20, 2021 8:28:10 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Apr 21, 2021 11:57:22 GMT
I noticed that Nigel Farage has now taken on tree planting as his new thrust, ironically in cahoots with a Dutch firm. The trouble with conservatives (or general loose-canons in this case) taking to this is that others are bound to find more radical directions- National Geographic recently published one scientist's hypothesis online which claimed that Amazonian trees are causing climate change by emitting volumes of carbon. Guess we'll always get it wrong. As an indication that conservation can concern everyone,we see recently a general disapproval by Brontë readers worldwide of a proposal that part of the legendary Bradford moors which inspired Emily will be cleared for a hundred+ houses. They should leave the meadow to the butterflies that lifted Mr Lockwood's and Nellie's hearts so much,I think I'd be terrified to leave my front step in case I came across crazy Cathy's ghost. Even elder Mr Brontë fled back to Ireland eventually. |
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Post by cato on Apr 21, 2021 13:37:58 GMT
The late great English philosopher Rodger Scruton was a notable conservationist coming from a conservative position . It comes up as a theme in many of his books which shows it is perfectly possible to be a non leftist and be environmentally concerned. He was also sceptical of much of the apocalyptic gloom of the mainstream green agenda.
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Post by cato on May 3, 2021 17:58:52 GMT
Dr Brendan Kilcoyne on YouTube (The Brendan option) has discussed Green issues twice recently and I recommend his thought provoking talks.
He points out recent Popes have written and endorsed much sensible and necessary measures to protect God's creation. Fr Kilcoyne mentions the passion and power of Vegans and points out they have much more fire in the belly than the average catholic. Their emphasis on valuing life, ethical living re nature and advocating simple living ties in with an old and venerable Christian monastic lifestyle.
He does challenge them on their obliviousness to human suffering especially regarding the unborn but accepts we can learn a lot from young passionate greens.
I was horrified to learn in one of Michel Houellebecqs novels that male chicks are burned alive or fed alive into grinders on industrial farms. Much of the practice on these farms which give us cheap food is degrading and barbaric. We will be judged harshly on this terrible system.
I am not a vegan but I believe animals feel pain and distress and we should treat them with appropriate dignity and kill them as humanely as possible and give them some sort of life in farms.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on May 4, 2021 15:11:14 GMT
Dr Brendan Kilcoyne on YouTube (The Brendan option) has discussed Green issues twice recently and I recommend his thought provoking talks. He points out recent Popes have written and endorsed much sensible and necessary measures to protect God's creation. Fr Kilcoyne mentions the passion and power of Vegans and points out they have much more fire in the belly than the average catholic. Their emphasis on valuing life, ethical living re nature and advocating simple living ties in with an old and venerable Christian monastic lifestyle. He does challenge them on their obliviousness to human suffering especially regarding the unborn but accepts we can learn a lot from young passionate greens. I was horrified to learn in one of Michel Houellebecqs novels that male chicks are burned alive or fed alive into grinders on industrial farms. Much of the practice on these farms which give us cheap food is degrading and barbaric. We will be judged harshly on this terrible system. I am not a vegan but I believe animals feel pain and distress and we should treat them with appropriate dignity and kill them as humanely as possible and give them some sort of life in farms. I would agree they have a lot of passion, which if rightly ordered could be used to light a fire under the masses. Would you have a Link for the Rev Fathers discussion Cato? The devil is in the detail with "Greens" and ones has to look at what there motivations are based on and what is there philosophy? Some Greens would like to see the Human population to drop to under a Billion and never kill any animal unless it is in the womb! The Monastic lifestyle is a very different lifestyle than the Veganism so many ways like the A Hindu Monk and Catholic Monk are very different but may be both Vegan or vegetarians! Cato I find "humanely" a problematic word as it makes the listener think we should treat animals the same as humans. Which obviously we should not. I hate factory farming, it degrades the humans that partake in it! I farm myself and believe in traditional animal husbandry. I'm interested what you mean by "We will be judged harshly on this terrible system."?  |
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Post by cato on May 4, 2021 16:59:33 GMT
[quote I would agree they have a lot of passion, which if rightly ordered could be used to light a fire under the masses. Would you have a Link for the Rev Fathers discussion Cato? Cato It's two fairly recent videos by him on You Tube. He usually puts titles on them. I 'll try and locate them but all his talks to date are worth listening to. I know him personally I should add and he's solid. br] The devil is in the detail with "Greens" and ones has to look at what there motivations are based on and what is there philosophy? Some Greens would like to see the Human population to drop to under a Billion and never kill any animal unless it is in the womb! The Monastic lifestyle is a very different lifestyle than the Veganism so many ways like the A Hindu Monk and Catholic Monk are very different but may be both Vegan or vegetarians! Cato - I have a thing for Early medieval Ireland based on the actual texts and practices of the early Irish Christians and not the Celtic spirituality mythology. Some of their radical practice is unconsciously being echoed by zealous green pagans today. Rather than dismiss them as false and misguided we Christians should be pointing out we have the original green message plus it's roots in the loving God who created all that exists. The earliest Christian missionaries used what was valuable and true in paganism to graft the gospel onto. Fr Kilcoyne has been adressing the big issue of how do Catholics evangelize in most of his talks. This is his departure point. Both he and I are well aware of the deep flaws in much environmentalist extremism. r] Cato I find "humanely" a problematic word as it makes the listener think we should treat animals the same as humans. Which obviously we should not. Cato. Yes I knew someone who pull me up on using "humanely" inaccurately! Kindly or respectfully are perhaps more appropriate terms but maybe the term humanely does extend to showing an appropriate reverence for lower life forms that can feel pain and fear. I was a bloods sport participant for a long time but have stopped as I have grown personally uncomfortable with killing as a pastime. I support the right to hunt and fish but I don't do it anymore. ]I hate factory farming, it degrades the humans that partake in it! I farm myself and believe in traditional animal husbandry. I'm interested what you mean by "We will be judged harshly....." Cato I think if we are spared to last another few generations people may look back on Industrial farming the way we look back on the horrors of Victorian industrialisation or child labour. Not that those scourges are absent from many parts of our world still sadly. From a Christian perspective there will be a general judgement of the human race at the end of days and all our brutalities and cruelties will be part of that reckoning. That judgement will be entirely just and merciful of course. It will not be cheap however. It will be harsh by our lukewarm standards. |
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Post by cato on May 4, 2021 17:01:11 GMT
Lovely picture Sean.
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Post by Séamus on May 5, 2021 4:50:58 GMT
Dr Brendan Kilcoyne on YouTube (The Brendan option) has discussed Green issues twice recently and I recommend his thought provoking talks. He points out recent Popes have written and endorsed much sensible and necessary measures to protect God's creation. Fr Kilcoyne mentions the passion and power of Vegans and points out they have much more fire in the belly than the average catholic. Their emphasis on valuing life, ethical living re nature and advocating simple living ties in with an old and venerable Christian monastic lifestyle. He does challenge them on their obliviousness to human suffering especially regarding the unborn but accepts we can learn a lot from young passionate greens. I was horrified to learn in one of Michel Houellebecqs novels that male chicks are burned alive or fed alive into grinders on industrial farms. Much of the practice on these farms which give us cheap food is degrading and barbaric. We will be judged harshly on this terrible system. I am not a vegan but I believe animals feel pain and distress and we should treat them with appropriate dignity and kill them as humanely as possible and give them some sort of life in farms. Pius V's document against bullfighting is worth reading. As well as the barbarity against animals, he considered it an unnecessary danger to human life also (which would mean that any deaths occurring would have the status of culpable homicide- but that's another issue). (Despite the interesting things that this Pope/Saint said and did, the ordinary form Office intriguingly uses a second reading from the writings of St Augustine on bishops instead of quoting from the pontiff himself) In the 19th Century Cardinal Manning,among others, had involvement with anti-animal cruelty groups also. |
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on May 5, 2021 8:09:49 GMT
[quote I would agree they have a lot of passion, which if rightly ordered could be used to light a fire under the masses. Would you have a Link for the Rev Fathers discussion Cato? CatoIt's two fairly recent videos by him on You Tube. He usually puts titles on them. I 'll try and locate them but all his talks to date are worth listening to. I know him personally I should add and he's solid. br] The devil is in the detail with "Greens" and ones has to look at what there motivations are based on and what is there philosophy? Some Greens would like to see the Human population to drop to under a Billion and never kill any animal unless it is in the womb! The Monastic lifestyle is a very different lifestyle than the Veganism so many ways like the A Hindu Monk and Catholic Monk are very different but may be both Vegan or vegetarians! Cato
I have a thing for Early medieval Ireland based on the actual texts and practices of the early Irish Christians and not the Celtic spirituality mythology. Some of their radical practice is unconsciously being echoed by zealous green pagans today. Rather than dismiss them as false and misguided we Christians should be pointing out we have the original green message plus it's roots in the loving God who created all that exists. The earliest Christian missionaries used what was valuable and true in paganism to graft the gospel onto. Fr Kilcoyne has been adressing the big issue of how do Catholics evangelize in most of his talks. This is his departure point. Both he and I are well aware of the deep flaws in much environmentalist extremism. r] Cato I find "humanely" a problematic word as it makes the listener think we should treat animals the same as humans. Which obviously we should not. Cato. Yes I knew someone who pull me up on using "humanely" inaccurately! Kindly or respectfully are perhaps more appropriate terms but maybe the term humanely does extend to showing an appropriate reverence for lower life forms that can feel pain and fear. I was a bloods sport participant for a long time but have stopped as I have grown personally uncomfortable with killing as a pastime. I support the right to hunt and fish but I don't do it anymore. ]I hate factory farming, it degrades the humans that partake in it! I farm myself and believe in traditional animal husbandry. I'm interested what you mean by "We will be judged harshly....." CatoI think if we are spared to last another few generations people may look back on Industrial farming the way we look back on the horrors of Victorian industrialisation or child labour. Not that those scourges are absent from many parts of our world still sadly. From a Christian perspective there will be a general judgement of the human race at the end of days and all our brutalities and cruelties will be part of that reckoning. That judgement will be entirely just and merciful of course. It will not be cheap however. It will be harsh by our lukewarm standards. Men should be able to kill animals quickly and with as little pain for the animals as possible. I think by taking the life of an animal you appreciate Gods gift more and have greater respect for food and where it comes from. Cato, what put you off hunting fishing? Do you eat meat? |
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Post by cato on May 10, 2021 15:39:47 GMT
Cato, what put you off hunting fishing? Do you eat meat?
[/quote][/quote]
I like guns and the idea of hunting. Dispatching an animal you have shot but that is still alive was something I found distasteful especially as I wasn't hunting for food. I eventually stopped shooting. Extinguishing a life for pleasure struck me as cruel and decadent.
You asked previously about Friday Kilcoyne's talk about animals. Its The Brendan Option 012 "No excuse for species abuse"on YouTube.
Yes I eat meat , fish and fowl but I try to eat non industrially sourced animals.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on May 11, 2021 10:01:30 GMT
Cato, what put you off hunting fishing? Do you eat meat?
[/quote] I like guns and the idea of hunting. Dispatching an animal you have shot but that is still alive was something I found distasteful especially as I wasn't hunting for food. I eventually stopped shooting. Extinguishing a life for pleasure struck me as cruel and decadent. You asked previously about Friday Kilcoyne's talk about animals. Its The Brendan Option 012 "No excuse for species abuse"on YouTube. Yes I eat meat , fish and fowl but I try to eat non industrially sourced animals. [/quote] SeánI also am a fan of firearms & hunting. To kill animals for pleasure alone takes away from the individual's humanity. If we hunt or kill for food, rights of passage or culling it is good and God gave us that power as the head of material beings. Thank you for sharing "No excuse for species abuse" on YouTube. I hope to stop eating Industrial sourced animals soon. At the moment I'm starting to raising animals for this purpose. |
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Post by Stephen on May 17, 2021 10:06:43 GMT
A wonderful documentary that highlights the hypocrisy of the Environmental/ Vegan lobby.  |
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Post by cato on May 17, 2021 11:04:41 GMT
Dare I say that the great contribution to the church of Pope Francis will be his emphasis on environmental issues, that are fundamentally linked to creation , stewardship and all life , human included.
Much environmentalism is a recycled heresy. Chesterton critiqued the Victorian/Edwardian green fad. The current wave followed on from another wave in the 1960s. At the heart of every heresy is a truth pushed to extremes.
I suspect a revived Christianity when it emerges will take this heresy and purify it and restore it in Christ who talked to us about God the Father's concern for field lilies and little sparrows.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 19, 2021 12:59:14 GMT
Like everyone else here, I'm on board with a healthy environmentalism, and consider it eminently conservative.
But I can never understand why it's OK to take a protectionist view towards nature, but not towards the human habitat. To make any effort to preserve the distinctiveness of human cultures is to face accusations that you are trying to "preserve them in aspic" (whatever that is) and denying the reality of change. Why is it imperative to preserve biodiversity, but forbidden to preserve ethnodiversity?
(NB: When I say "ethno-", I'm talking about CULTURE, not race.)
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