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Post by kj on Jul 8, 2017 11:45:12 GMT
I read this last night in an article by Desmond Fennell and I think it is excellent on the kind of 'Irishness' that sells abroad, and one which basically feeds a negative, patronising view of the country:
"What Irish writing continues to be notable for, and most valued for, both abroad and in Ireland, is its occasional, strong depiction of life that is sub-adult, sub-literate, offbeat, weirdpoor, and possessed of a naïve, occasionally hilarious, charm. Life, in short, which is an attractive marginal oddity. This is, of course, an age-old stereotype of Irishness in the English speaking world.
I am thinking, most immediately, of the recent, simultaneous success—abroad and by definition in Ireland—of the novelist Roddy Doyle, the memoirist Frank McCourt and the playwright Martin McDonagh. Frank McCourt, whose remembered depiction of life in Limerick slums, and of those awful Catholic priests and nuns, was extracted, prior to publication, in The New Yorker, went on to win the Pulitzer Prize, and is being advertised in London—I saw the posters—with this quote from a review: ‘Out Roddy Doyles Roddy Doyle…It is amazing’. London Irishman Martin McDonagh, launched by the Druid Theatre in Galway with his play The Beauty Queen of Leenane, went on to scale the heights in London, and will soon be big in New York, with plays entitled A Skull in Connemara, The Lonesome West, The Cripple from Inishmaan. The titles adequately reflect the content.
But I am also thinking—in terms of theme only, let me stress—of the other Irish novels and plays that have drawn most hype and acclaim in recent years in Britain, or in Britain and America, and therefore, of course, in Ireland. Dermot Healy’s A Goat’s Song, with its trumpeted bucolic title and mainly West of Ireland setting, where the narrator’s central concerns—when lonesome without his woman or despairing in her company—are whether something alcoholic is left over from the night before, and which pub is the best one to begin the day’s drinking in; Patrick McCabe’s The Butcher Boy, about a curious, violent, idiot-boy, seeing visions of the Virgin, begorrah, and other marvels in a moronic Border town; John McGahern’s Amongst Women, about the dour peasant, Moran, patriarching his womenfolk in a timewarp Irish rural scene set in timeless Irish amber; fascinating book-at-bedtime reading—‘Really quite remarkable people, the Irish, and what beautiful writing!’—for the folk, jaded with contemporaneity, who heard it ‘at bedtime’ on BBC 4. And for good measure, Brian Friel, with his tales of Ballybeg peasants, and above all his great international success, Dancing at Lughnasa, where those Donegal wenches get up and jig like mad on the kitchen table and chairs to the music from the old steam radio.
These are the sort of fictional works for which Ireland remains notable. All of them are valued by the contemporary English-speaking world as icons of Irishness, which define by their
contrast the adult normality of that world. This valuation translates into a demand for such works. Partly in response to it, partly because of the happy chance that many Irish writers like depicting such ‘Irishness’, the representation of it has been, and remains, the dominant tendency of Irish fictional writing…."
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 8, 2017 12:26:30 GMT
Of all the writers listed, Roddy Doyle is the only one whose representation of Irishness offends me. He's talented, without a doubt, but his picture of Irish life seems utterly squalid and dispiriting to me. Sadly, it is also probably the most accurate.
So much to say on this. But I'm in a hurry, my connection is playing up, and I want to see what other people say.
In general, I'm rather favourable to stage Irishness. Oscar Wilde's essay The Decay of Lying is relevant here. Life often copies art and I would rather have a John B. Keane character as our idealized self-image that one of the foul-mouthed pop culture junkies with which Doyle populates his work. (I've only read the Barrytown Trilogy; that was enough. I was young at the time, m'lud.)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 8, 2017 12:31:24 GMT
I hated (hated hated hated) Calvary, but perhaps the only thing I liked about it was Martin MacDonagh's apparent post-modern use of Irish tropes. I got the impression it was set in a kind of dark fairy-tale world not to be mistaken for social reality. Rather like the novels of Flann O'Brien.
The film Zonad was another example of this kind of thing. I liked it, despite its often crass humour.
I don't read contemporary literary fiction, though.
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Post by kj on Jul 8, 2017 12:32:36 GMT
I agree. I think one thing maybe Fennell overlooks is that a 'realistic' portrayal of Ireland would simply re-enforce the image of Ireland as nothing but a statlet of Anglo-American culture. Obviously we don't want leprachauns and pigs-in-the-kitchen stuff, so a balance is needed. I think what maybe motivates me is the continual negative portrayal of Ireland in the culture sections of UK newspapers, particularly the Guardian. According to that paper, we are nothing but a "priest-ridden theocracy" (their favourite phrase when it comes to Ireland) that needs liberating into becoming a multi-cultural grotty, tacky place like the UK. Worse still, they get plenty of Irish writers willing to take the Queen's shilling and write damning articles about Ireland re-enforcing that image. (Eimear O'Toole seems to their latest representative.)
Of course this ties into the Irish language post I made today. If we had a thriving literature in Gaeilge then we wouldn't be so open to the kind of stereotyping that I'm describing above.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 8, 2017 12:49:37 GMT
It's nice when I can agree with someone wholeheartedly on these matters!:-)
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Post by MourningIreland on Jul 8, 2017 23:13:19 GMT
Wow. I feel like a time traveller. 25 years ago I could have written a lengthy response about the relationship of "Angela's Ashes," "Dancing at Lughnasa," "The Butcher Boy," and "The Beauty Queen of Leenane" to actual Irish culture - a fascinating and perfectly legitimate question even in 1999 that just sounds surreal to me in 2017. To me, Irish culture has changed so radically in the last 25 years as to make this question almost obsolete. In all cases these literary works (all of which preceded the Celtic Tiger) describe a country that exists today almost only in memory. I mean no disrespect and know that maybe I'm alone in feeling this in such an extreme way.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 8, 2017 23:46:03 GMT
I think this is partly what kj was saying-- that those works describe a very outdated image of Irishness. Even when they were written, they did. How much more so now.
In this case, "culture" can describe both the works of art and the society that the works of art portray, so that complicates things!
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Post by cato on Jul 9, 2017 11:38:13 GMT
We can get very touchy about foreigners'perceptions about us.
I lived abroad for a period like many Irish people. One thing that struck me was how little people thought of us if at all. In Europe people often thought I was from Holland or Iceland. Those that did know where mother Ireland was located thought it was were catholics and protestants slaughtered one another.Sad but it taught me the lesson the world doesn't revolve around us. We are a small fish in a big pond.
Perceptions are often mistaken. They are filtered through blinkered sense experiences. I wonder is our national sensitivity linked to the old fear the Brits might be laughing at the Paddies if we messed up our independence? Or the fear in rural Ireland to do anything that might get the neighbours talking?Either way it is a pointless exercise. We cannot control what people think about us.And life is too short to waste time attempting .
Most of us probably have stereotyped views of other nationalities or different generations or non conservatives so its probably a universal characteristic. It is also what makes a people distinct.
It is hard for writers to capture any experience in an era of huge change. I think thats why a few books become classics , some period pieces and most just sink without trace. It is getting harder and harder to capture or protray an authentic Irish experience as we go through the biggest and fastest cultural changes ever known.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jul 9, 2017 13:40:32 GMT
We can get very touchy about foreigners'perceptions about us. I lived abroad for a period like many Irish people. One thing that struck me was how little people thought of us if at all. In Europe people often thought I was from Holland or Iceland. Those that did know where mother Ireland was located thought it was were catholics and protestants slaughtered one another.Sad but it taught me the lesson the world doesn't revolve around us. We are a small fish in a big pond. Perceptions are often mistaken. They are filtered through blinkered sense experiences. I wonder is our national sensitivity linked to the old fear the Brits might be laughing at the Paddies if we messed up our independence? Or the fear in rural Ireland to do anything that might get the neighbours talking?Either way it is a pointless exercise..... I think our sense of national identity is coloured by the fact that in the American consciousness we punch well above our weight in proportion to the size of our nation. According to this article 12% of Americans claim some Irish ancestry: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408591/American-ethnicity-map-shows-melting-pot-ethnicities-make-USA-today.htmlSo part of this is sheer demographics (quantity), but the Irish have also had a disproportionate impact on American culture, most notably - but not exclusively - in the realm of politics (quality). We continue to dominate on both the Left and the Right, and in urban American politics. This badge of honor has grown a bit tarnished as the American Century finds itself eclipsed by globalisation. So when we are in European countries and realise that Europeans in the main don't care too much about us or even think about us too much, maybe we are a little bit miffed because we are accustomed to the attention and deference the Yanks have always given to us. With respect to feeling inferior I sometimes wonder whether our eagerness to commit national suicide by throwing away our greatest treasure is motivated largely by this. If so our foreign conquerers who have always hated us are laughing hysterically as we descend en masse into an anti-Christian, secularist-consumerist hell. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 9, 2017 15:25:03 GMT
Indeed, whenever I was in America, I was amazed at how much people there knew and cared about Ireland.
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Post by cato on Jul 9, 2017 15:27:10 GMT
Maolsheachlann I have to respectfully
disagree with you on " Calvary".I found it immensely moving and was very taken by its treatment of the main priest character played by Brendan Gleeson. To my great surprise in spite of his flaws he was christlike in his self sacrificing to the point of death. There is also a beautiful scene of forgiveness and redemption at the very end. It is dark certainly and the parishioners to a man and woman seem to have come from Dante's Inferno!
It did come across as theatrical and wooden at times but there were some beautifully filmed scenes like the dead french tourist being flown from Sligo airport and the killing of the priest on the beach where my heart was in my mouth watching .It may not a pro catholic church movie but it I would see it as catholic perhaps in the Graham Greene mode.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 9, 2017 16:01:47 GMT
Maolsheachlann I have to respectfully disagree with you on " Calvary".I found it immensely moving and was very taken by its treatment of the main priest character played by Brendan Gleeson. Fair enough. I seem to be in a minority even amongst Catholics for detesting it. I felt grubby coming out of the cinema. I've rarely seen a movie I disliked more. For me, it lacked any element of entertainment-- it was like an ordeal. I wrote about it in a blog post here, shortly after seeing it. I really felt it was nihilistic and life-hating. But the dialogue was quite sharp. Maybe I am just missing something! |
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Post by cato on Jul 9, 2017 17:10:42 GMT
I think Calvary borders on dualism. Most of the characters are mean spirited ,scheming ,cynical and horribly nasty
if not down right evil. It paints a very bleak portrait of a faithless modern rural Ireland which is clearly imbalanced and unfair. It resembled a classical melodramatic tragedy except for the flawed shepherd who dies sacrifically and to me at any rate overcomes the evil. He was one of the few recent positive depictions of a catholic priest in the Irish media .
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Post by kj on Jul 9, 2017 18:30:19 GMT
I lived in the UK for five years. I found the vast, vast majority of English people have absolutely no knowledge and no interest in Ireland and Irish history. Those who did tended to subscribe to the "pigs in the kitchen" Hollywood stereotypes.
Personally, that's fine by me, if it discourages people moving to Ireland.
The other thing that it really rubbed home was my irritation for the type of Irish revisionist who thinks it is vital for us to "reconcile" with Britain in regard to previous conflict. Trust me, no one in Britain cares; it's only a delusion of certain Britain-lovers here that they do. You don't see English people campaigning to have the statue of Cromwell in front of Westminster taken down for fear of insulting the Irish, so why should we apologise for anything? Each country to their own.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 9, 2017 19:22:44 GMT
I'm an anglophile myself but I tend to agree with you.
An example of this is all the hoop-la about the centenary of World War One. RTE and the rest of the media were really pushing the "we must honour the Irish soldiers who fought in World War One" narrative.
Now, personally, I have no problem at all commemorating, nay even celebrating, the Irish soldiers who fought and died in World War One. I think it was a savage and pointless war, but the point is that Irish people died in it. Many doubtless did so for idealistic reasons. So I am very happy to commemorate them.
But I resent RTE's pressure to do so, because I realize they are simply bashing nationalist historiography, and that's what it's all about for them.
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