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Post by Stephen on May 14, 2017 8:18:35 GMT
I would love to generally discuss being Culturally British and Irish.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 14, 2017 8:48:58 GMT
First, a personal note: Stephen, I am very glad you are here!
As to your question, I am not sure how much I can say. But will say something that is perhaps tangential.
For, on the one hand, I am very concerned about the negative influence of Anglo-American culture rooted in Protestantism and something I posted from Fr. Cahill in the current "liberal" thread amply expresses that - namely that England and America have a massive, never fully seen, liberalising effect on this country.
But, on the other hand, I still believe there exists a relationship between the two cultures that is not simply fallen but rooted in something PROVIDENTIAL.
By providence, I think that after the horrific famine, Ireland brought a massive infusion of Catholicism into the Britain, which was 99% Protestant before that.
And despite all my reservations about the pernicious effects of (my own) Anglo-American culture, I still think that providentially, Britain has had gifts to offer Ireland and Irish culture.
Yes, I tend to think that nations have mysterious providential relations with each other. And that God has divine purposes in that providence, even if our own human fallen-ness messes those mysterious purposes up.
Perhaps that is too tangential to your question, though ... but again very glad to see you here and contributing. I really pray this forum can make a DIFFERENCE in Ireland and your voice here helps.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 14, 2017 13:04:45 GMT
Yes, indeed, welcome Stephen!
As an Irish nationalist I have to admit that my instinct is to say that nationality is indivisible. That once you get into hybrid nationalities, where do you stop? My instinct is to say that it's a dilution rather than an enrichment.
On the other hand, the history of Irish nationalism itself would seem to belie that. Think how important the "Irish-American" community was in that history.
For my own part, I have always been an enthusiastic Anglophile-- perhaps less of a Brit-ophile! I agree with Roger that nations have Providential relationships with each other and anti-English sentiment in Ireland has always really annoyed me.
I suppose Britain is a union of nations rather than a nation, so it could well be argued that you can be Irish and British just as well as you can be Welsh and British.
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Post by Stephen on May 14, 2017 14:25:24 GMT
To start: Roger Thank you for the Invitation to the Forum. I agree with you that there is a lot to be concerned about when it comes to the negative influence of Anglo-American culture which is rooted in Protestantism. That being said I am British and Irish. I define myself as Irish and British as my family and the culture around me is so. MY family is Irish/British as my Father Served in the Canadian Scottish Guard in his youth. He was a British subject who was born and he grew up in Inner City Dublin as well as my Uncle who served in Royal Irish. I served in The Defence Forces for the Irish Republic. My Grandfather fought for the state in the civil war. My Great Grand Father Fought in WW1. My Great great Grand Father was in the Madras Horse artillery and served during the Indian Mutiny. Even my Daughter is a Brittish Subject . The Culture around me is evidence in itself that I am Irish/ British (Current Language you are reading, etc). That being said the History of Ireland is sad and joyful when it come to the relationship between the Scottish, English and Welsh. I pray one day that the four nations will walk together under one banner unified by Christ and his Holy Church (Not in my Lifetime I think).
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Post by rogerbuck on May 15, 2017 9:35:56 GMT
Grateful for you articulating that, Stephen. And, most paradoxically, it has produced unexpected resonances in me. It is paradoxical, I say, because of my grave concern about English liberalism and before I come to my unexpected resonances with you, let me just amplify that a bit. Long ago, I once had the Anglophilia that I suspect both you and Maolsheachlann share. I admit to becoming somewhat disenchanted with England the more I learned of history and also the history of philosophy. By that I mean one of England's greatest contributions to world culture is a history of ever more materialistic philosophy in a trajectory we could (simplistically) suggest by citing Bacon-Hobbes-LOCKE- HUME (Hume is Scottish) Bentham, Mill, Russell, Ayer etc - and all this has fostered liberalism in ways I never imagined before I engaged with philosophy. Protestant-liberal England really imported that to the world. (For example, although I have not really read Voltaire, many have argued that, Descartes apart, he and the other French philosophes were not so original, they were importing Locke and Hume and this led to 1789.) So I grew slowly into a Hibernophile concerned with English domination. Now, obviously, I am still concerned with all that. But sometimes I admit I HAVE wondered if in reaction to this domination the Gaelic League may have over-emphasised Ireland's Gaelic-ness, just a LITTLE too much. I once read that one third of Irish surnames are Norman in origin and I wonder ( ) if what the Irish are today would really be better described as Gaelic-Norman, the way the English speak of "Anglo-Saxon" (even if the Norman is the lesser element and the Norman-English famously became "more Irish than the Irish themselves".) On a subjective note, I certainly find myself attracted to those old Norman-Gaelic places in the South like Galway, for instance. Huge, complex stuff. But your post made me think appreciatively of Ireland's providential role within these four nations and that that role must be a major part of what the Irish are about (as opposed, say - obviously - to a providential role within the Slavic nations). Still, I am very with the Gaelic League too and how it had a spiritual force working through men like Yeats, Pearse, Dev and also Fr Cahill who I increasingly LOVE. These were all fallen men, of course, but I think they were expressing THE SOUL OF IRELAND and I very much don't want to see that soul any more absorbed in Anglo-Americanness than it already is. This forum may attract more Irish Nationalists or Hibernophiles like me, but, if so, I hope we will all appreciate you reminding us of the real gifts that Britain has brought and yes, Ireland's important providential role within these four nations.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 15, 2017 9:45:41 GMT
The history of England and Britain is a funny thing. Certainly it was the home of utilitarianism, empiricism and the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. But there has always been a mystical strain to it, as well. Nobody loves ghosts and fairies like the English. For every Jeremy Bentham there is a Thomas Carlyle.
And here I must admit that my angolophilia is more based on the past than the future. I don't like the England of today. It seems both spiritually and culturally moribund. Not that I wouldn't say the same thing of Ireland!
"Gaelic" to me is a cultural rather than an ethnic term. The Normans have been fully assimilated. I hate to use such progressive-sounding rhetoric, but I think Gaelicism is to a great extent a social and cultural construct and I'm fine with that.
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Post by cato on May 25, 2017 21:35:55 GMT
It can be embarassing sometimes how the Irish media try to find an Irish angle to some global news story. It is also interesting how we ignore prominent Irish men like the Iron Duke who defeated the mighty Napolean Bonaparte (and in case some smart ass mentions horses in stables there is no proof he made that remark!) Or Lord Kitchener of "Your country needs you"fame who is ignored or reviled as being not really Irish. Sounds like feminist hypocrisy when they sneeringly denounced the Iron lady as not really being a woman !The modern democrat loving Irish media never laud the high achieving speaker of the senate Paul Ryan which perhaps goes to show you can't be Irish and Republican , at least not the American version.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 26, 2017 7:50:50 GMT
I think Gaelicism is to a great extent a social and cultural construct and I'm fine with that. I do wonder about this, Maolsheachlann. What I don't quite understand with this theory is how it took such POWERFUL HOLD of the Irish imagination for so long, if it were something "to a great extent" constructed, which implies somewhat arbitrary. So many constructed, arbitrary things never, ever take hold ... I will posit a silly hypothetical scenario to attempt to illustrate my meaning here. Suppose ... just suppose ... some Swedish nationalists ardently wanted to break free from the EU. And suppose some of them turned to ancient Swedish/Scandinavian mythology to establish a new form of Swedish nationalism. I tend to doubt it would take hold of the Swedish imagination in the way that Gaelicism gripped the minds and hearts of not only brilliant men like Hyde, Yeats Pearse etc or that would sustain De Valera till his dying days or that spoke to masses of the Irish first through the Gaelic League and later, I tend to think, through the early Fianna Fail. Okay what I said about Sweden is a bit silly. You can certainly find plenty of holes in my argument. But maybe you can still see what I'm getting at. I just don't think largely or purely artificial constructs have this kind of hold on the imagination. That hold derives from something deeper ..
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 26, 2017 8:41:47 GMT
I think they do, for which I would furnish examples:
"Anglo-Saxonism" in Britain, especially in the Victorian era, even though it may be a minority descended from the Anglo-Saxons, whose definition is difficult anyway.
"Arianism" in Germany and other places during the heyday of race theory.
"Celticism" in Ireland despite the fact that nobody has really been able to describe the Celts very well. As Chesterton put it: " Who were the Celts? I defy anybody to say. Who are the Irish? I defy any one to be indifferent, or to pretend not to know."
I don't think a social and cultural construct has to be arbitrary. It has moorings in history, it just doesn't have to be determined by it, or validate itself constantly, or be transmitted strictly by bloodlines. I greatly prefer this to all the bickering about historical authenticity that we get when people understand "Gaelic" strictly.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 26, 2017 10:06:23 GMT
The whole "social construct"... with me, that's more a gambit than anything else. It's anticipating all the tiresome arguments about who the Gaels were and whether the nineteenth century invocations of Gaelic culture were genuine or not. Also, it's anticipating all the arguments that Gaelicism is "exclusionary" because it excludes people of other backgrounds. So I'm happy just to say: "It's an idea. it doesn't have to be historically accurate in every respect. Everybody is welcome to be a part of it." It just frees us from a lot of tiresome pedantic arguments.
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Post by MourningIreland on May 28, 2017 18:01:36 GMT
Grateful for you articulating that, Stephen. And, most paradoxically, it has produced unexpected resonances in me. It is paradoxical, I say, because of my grave concern about English liberalism and before I come to my unexpected resonances with you, let me just amplify that a bit. Long ago, I once had the Anglophilia that I suspect both you and Maolsheachlann share. I admit to becoming somewhat disenchanted with England the more I learned of history and also the history of philosophy. By that I mean one of England's greatest contributions to world culture is a history of ever more materialistic philosophy in a trajectory we could (simplistically) suggest by citing Bacon-Hobbes-LOCKE- HUME (Hume is Scottish) Bentham, Mill, Russell, Ayer etc - and all this has fostered liberalism in ways I never imagined before I engaged with philosophy. Protestant-liberal England really imported that to the world. (For example, although I have not really read Voltaire, many have argued that, Descartes apart, he and the other French philosophes were not so original, they were importing Locke and Hume and this led to 1789.) So I grew slowly into a Hibernophile concerned with English domination. Now, obviously, I am still concerned with all that. But sometimes I admit I HAVE wondered if in reaction to this domination the Gaelic League may have over-emphasised Ireland's Gaelic-ness, just a LITTLE too much. I once read that one third of Irish surnames are Norman in origin and I wonder ( ) if what the Irish are today would really be better described as Gaelic-Norman, the way the English speak of "Anglo-Saxon" (even if the Norman is the lesser element and the Norman-English famously became "more Irish than the Irish themselves".) On a subjective note, I certainly find myself attracted to those old Norman-Gaelic places in the South like Galway, for instance. Huge, complex stuff. But your post made me think appreciatively of Ireland's providential role within these four nations and that that role must be a major part of what the Irish are about (as opposed, say - obviously - to a providential role within the Slavic nations). Still, I am very with the Gaelic League too and how it had a spiritual force working through men like Yeats, Pearse, Dev and also Fr Cahill who I increasingly LOVE. These were all fallen men, of course, but I think they were expressing THE SOUL OF IRELAND and I very much don't want to see that soul any more absorbed in Anglo-Americanness than it already is. This forum may attract more Irish Nationalists or Hibernophiles like me, but, if so, I hope we will all appreciate you reminding us of the real gifts that Britain has brought and yes, Ireland's important providential role within these four nations. I wasn't aware of the disproportionate influence of English philosophers in promoting this belief system to the outer world, having never studied it, but I will take your word for it Roger (and thanks for doing the heavy lifting - LOL). You've certainly given me a great deal to think about. In view of the above, how IRONIC is it that the two unprecedented counter-revolutionary victories have emerged from the Anglosphere - BREXIT and the MAGA movement? (scratches head). Will the Anglosphere lead the West out of this current mess? From what I recall you don't like our president too much, but this is immaterial in my view - I am speaking here not about President Trump per se but about the spirit of nationalism, anti-globalism, and pro-Western pro-Judeo-Christian sentiment that he and Nigel tapped into - the SILENT MAJORITY, as Nixon termed it.
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Post by Young Ireland on May 28, 2017 21:26:35 GMT
Yes, I think that one can be both, just like one can be both Bavarian and German, or Basque and Spanish, of Breton and French, or Venetian and Italian. Identity is inherently fuzzy and is impossible to delineate in black and white terms, since every individual will have his own cultural identity.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 3, 2017 9:39:38 GMT
wasn't aware of the disproportionate influence of English philosophers in promoting this belief system to the outer world, having never studied it, but I will take your word for it Roger (and thanks for doing the heavy lifting - LOL). You've certainly given me a great deal to think about. In view of the above, how IRONIC is it that the two unprecedented counter-revolutionary victories have emerged from the Anglosphere - BREXIT and the MAGA movement? (scratches head). Will the Anglosphere lead the West out of this current mess? From what I recall you don't like our president too much, but this is immaterial in my view - I am speaking here not about President Trump per se but about the spirit of nationalism, anti-globalism, and pro-Western pro-Judeo-Christian sentiment that he and Nigel tapped into - the SILENT MAJORITY, as Nixon termed it. Yes, the irony is huge indeed. And despite the fact that I can be quite critical of the Anglo-American liberal culture (including its liberal economics), I really see a WONDERFUL irony in so much coming out of American Catholicism today. There are so many great Catholic initiatives, internet, publishing, colleges etc.. happening there. Some I am a hundred per cent enthused by (eg my publisher Angelico Press!) and others (which I won't name) are not quite my "cup of tea". Still, I see even the latter doing great things - and I think this American influence, particularly, can actually do a significant amount to re-evangelise Ireland.
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Post by seangladium on Jun 6, 2017 6:31:32 GMT
I feel conflicted here myself as my father grew up in East Belfast as a Catholic before leaving due to the increasing problems there during the late 60's. My paternal grandfather is also from Belfast. My great grandfather served in the British Army during the Second World War, and my grandmother, who is from Whitecross in south Armagh, partially grew up in Wales and the Channel Islands before the German occupation there. Most of my family customs are probably more British than Irish; however, I think my father held some Republican views growing up (I am not sure he does anymore), and I am definitely an Irish nationalist (but not a Republican). However, I would not ditch family customs just to be more "Irish", I am not even sure what that would entail anyways. I have always thought of myself as Irish and not British anyways.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Jun 6, 2017 12:55:02 GMT
Jonathan Swift lamented that Irish people in his time were better informed about the history of the reformation in England than they were about the history of the reformation in their own country. Make of that what you will!
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