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Post by cato on Jun 8, 2019 12:03:12 GMT
The Italian version of the Our Father is being amended by the Pope so the "lead us not into temptation" becomes "let us not be put to the test".
The Pope justifies this based on the thinking of modern man who cannot understand what the previous 2000 odd years of Christianity had no problem with. On RTE a woman theologian from the Trinity College Loyola Institute said we have a different understanding of life and fatherhood. She also went on to suggest the idea of God as father was limited and problematic for many.
These remarks show exactly what is the problem with amending a core Christian text; once you tweak it to reflect current theology then others demand more radical fundamental changes.
What is silly about all of this is that believers are somewhat bewildered at why we need to change and unbelievers couldn't care less. Imposing your personal foibles and hobby horses on the Church universal is a hallmark of this wearying pontificate.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 26, 2019 1:51:36 GMT
Well said, Cato - as ever.
I don't usually say much publicly about this Papacy, but, for once, I will permit myself this.
This accommodation to rationalism disturbs me perhaps more than anything else in the last six years of the Church.
That may strike some as extreme or bizarre. And I hardly know how to explain it now. But I recall a Russian writing in the 1930s to the effect that these apparently irrational words, left intact now for 2000 years, express not a "mis-leading" God, but a tremendous mystery. I wish I knew where that text was now. I wonder what the Orthodox think?
The Christians, that is, least prone, I think, to fall into rationalism - the idolatry of reason that this change represents.
When I think of Catholics, for centuries perhaps - who knows, altering these lines, I shudder.
Heaven help us.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 26, 2019 1:56:02 GMT
PS. I am going to stress that normally on these things, nearly always really, I try to emulate the faithfulness to the Holy Father exemplified by such as Padre Pio, the Institute of Christ the King and our own fine moderator here, but i am going to paste in this, just seen at Rorate Caeli:
Francis in his own words: There was no 'multiplication' of loaves: it was just 'sharing'.
In his own words:
Surprisingly, the account of the multiplication of the loaves does not mention the multiplication itself. On the contrary, the words that stand out are: “break”, “give” and “distribute” (cf. Lk 9:16). In effect, the emphasis is not on the multiplication but the act of sharing. This is important. Jesus does not perform a magic trick; he does not change five loaves into five thousand and then to announce: “There! Distribute them!” No. Jesus first prays, then blesses the five loaves and begins to break them, trusting in the Father. And those five loaves never run out. This is no magic trick; it is an act of trust in God and his providence. Francis
Homily on Corpus Christi Rome, June 23, 2019
What a day to pronounce this!
Will I feel remorse about having posted this, after I rise ...?
We shall see.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 26, 2019 10:55:05 GMT
PS. I am going to stress that normally on these things, nearly always really, I try to emulate the faithfulness to the Holy Father exemplified by such as Padre Pio, the Institute of Christ the King and our own fine moderator here, but i am going to paste in this, just seen at Rorate Caeli: Francis in his own words: There was no 'multiplication' of loaves: it was just 'sharing'.In his own words: Surprisingly, the account of the multiplication of the loaves does not mention the multiplication itself. On the contrary, the words that stand out are: “break”, “give” and “distribute” (cf. Lk 9:16). In effect, the emphasis is not on the multiplication but the act of sharing. This is important. Jesus does not perform a magic trick; he does not change five loaves into five thousand and then to announce: “There! Distribute them!” No. Jesus first prays, then blesses the five loaves and begins to break them, trusting in the Father. And those five loaves never run out. This is no magic trick; it is an act of trust in God and his providence. Francis Homily on Corpus Christi Rome, June 23, 2019 What a day to pronounce this! Will I feel remorse about having posted this, after I rise ...? We shall see. The headline seems a bit unfair, since Pope Francis was not denying the multiplication, but rather saying the EMPHASIS was upon the sharing. As ever, one could sorely wish that the Holy Father would be clearer at such times. Here is Jimmy Akin's take on it, for what it's worth. www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-the-parable-of-the-loaves-and-fishes-11-things-to-know-and
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Post by cato on Jun 26, 2019 12:13:26 GMT
These confusing remarks are meant to prod rigid Pharisees to see the "real" profound meaning of this miracle - the importance of sharing with those poorer than ourselves.
While not minimising the core value of Christian charity is there any catholic over the age of 4 who doesn't know this virtue seeing it is one of the few Christian teachings that we still hear about from Rome , the bishops and at Sunday Mass ?
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 26, 2019 15:09:31 GMT
PS. I am going to stress that normally on these things, nearly always really, I try to emulate the faithfulness to the Holy Father exemplified by such as Padre Pio, the Institute of Christ the King and our own fine moderator here, but i am going to paste in this, just seen at Rorate Caeli: Francis in his own words: There was no 'multiplication' of loaves: it was just 'sharing'.In his own words: Surprisingly, the account of the multiplication of the loaves does not mention the multiplication itself. On the contrary, the words that stand out are: “break”, “give” and “distribute” (cf. Lk 9:16). In effect, the emphasis is not on the multiplication but the act of sharing. This is important. Jesus does not perform a magic trick; he does not change five loaves into five thousand and then to announce: “There! Distribute them!” No. Jesus first prays, then blesses the five loaves and begins to break them, trusting in the Father. And those five loaves never run out. This is no magic trick; it is an act of trust in God and his providence. Francis Homily on Corpus Christi Rome, June 23, 2019 What a day to pronounce this! Will I feel remorse about having posted this, after I rise ...? We shall see. The headline seems a bit unfair, since Pope Francis was not denying the multiplication, but rather saying the EMPHASIS was upon the sharing. As ever, one could sorely wish that the Holy Father would be clearer at such times. Here is Jimmy Akin's take on it, for what it's worth. www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-the-parable-of-the-loaves-and-fishes-11-things-to-know-andA uncharacteristic swift response, not having looked at Akin yet. I was aware of the same issue as you, Mal, about the Rorate Caeli headline/reading. But I've kept staring at this homily asking: why is he doing this? Why the twice repeated reference to "magic trick"? Why, I ask myself. It is also debatable that emphasis is on "sharing", given the basketfuls of leftovers. I would need to study it again. I note this morning I did not feel remorse and I just can't easily dismiss this under the familiar and respectful refrain that you use here, Mal - wishing he would be clearer. Again, I say respectful. I respect your respectfulness deeply. But so much has been done in this pontificate through unclear, ambiguous language that does seem to have an agenda. Agenda ... this relates to my question: Why the need to discount "magic tricks"? Sloppy, fast, I may regret this.
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Post by cato on Jul 4, 2019 20:54:12 GMT
Under this pontificate we have come to expect the confusing and bizarre. Few can now doubt we have the most extreme liberal pope to date. Contrary to venerable liberal prophecies this has not led to a revival in church attendance in the rapidly apostosising western church.
The October Amazonian synod document is truly saddening particularly its embracing of the ideology of the noble savage and it's recommendation the church ordain poorly educated married men . Poorly educated clerics of the medieval church helped create the Reformation. Clerical celibacy is not a dogma of the faith but if it is to be changed it should not be through a sneaky back door route but after an honest genuine debate. David Quinn has advocated this recently in the Sunday Times especially as the Irish church's vocations are at an all time low. The much smaller Church of Ireland has much larger numbers of trainee clergy relatively and for several years now in absolute figures.
A few days ago the Pope gave the relics of St Peter away to the Orthodox church. Yes you read that correctly. Apart from the fact the Pope had no right to do this Orthodoxy in general doesn't have the same devotion to relics as Catholics have. Or rather used to have.
This weary virtue signalling is not new . Pope St Paul VI sent the captured Islamic flags of Lepanto back to Turkey as an ecumenical peace offering in 1970. I have often thought it was somewhat insensitive to remind someone of a historical defeat.
Thank God Michaelangelos Last Judgement is painted onto the wall of the Sistine Chapel . It might have ended up being sent to George Soros to decorate his bathroom.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 5, 2019 8:23:54 GMT
Well said, Cato - as ever. I don't usually say much publicly about this Papacy, but, for once, I will permit myself this. This accommodation to rationalism disturbs me perhaps more than anything else in the last six years of the Church. That may strike some as extreme or bizarre. And I hardly know how to explain it now. But I recall a Russian writing in the 1930s to the effect that these apparently irrational words, left intact now for 2000 years, express not a "mis-leading" God, but a tremendous mystery. I wish I knew where that text was now. I wonder what the Orthodox think? The Christians, that is, least prone, I think, to fall into rationalism - the idolatry of reason that this change represents. When I think of Catholics, for centuries perhaps - who knows, altering these lines, I shudder. Heaven help us. A similar attempt was once made in Sweden, not publicly advertised like today (this was several years before the heyday of social medias) and thus only internally within the Catholic diocese of Stockholm. It was coincidental to the very first gut reaction against "modernism" on my personal part. After pleadings from various memebers of the flock the whole business was unambigously put away - far away, where it belonged. The beloved Bishop, now Cardinal, Anders Arborelius O.C.D. made a simple decision not to accept the suggestions from some clergy few in numbers (the chairman of the Liturgical committe at that time?). Quite certain the same would be the case if some genius would have thought of bringing that same stuff up again, so most unlikely that anyone should do such mistaken action.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 8, 2019 9:56:18 GMT
Under this pontificate we have come to expect the confusing and bizarre. Few can now doubt we have the most extreme liberal pope to date. Contrary to venerable liberal prophecies this has not led to a revival in church attendance in the rapidly apostosising western church...etc... Apropos to the subject- the small French congregation Little Sisters of Mary Mother of the Redeemer. I've only read accounts by the more traditional spectrum,but it appears that Rome seems to be unfairly pushing dissolution despite the sisters- who live a completely traditional lifestyle- still being completely active in aged-care. I'm sure few of us could live the pre1960s religious lifestyle in toto or would object to necessary adaptions that ageing communities might need,but that the relevant Vatican Congregation would interfere with those happy to continue as they are,who have much civic support for their work to boot,while there's been plenty of consecrated persons around the world causing absolute destruction to Catholicism,well beyond the "night-prayers-and-lights-out to light-prayers-and-nights-out" lifestyle changes,is quite stunning.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 8, 2019 11:22:09 GMT
"night-prayers-and-lights-out to light-prayers-and-nights-out" Never heard that one before!
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Post by Séamus on Jul 9, 2019 1:50:59 GMT
From a Mercy Sister apparently,a cautious congregational leader in the 70s era. Probably deceased now.
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Post by cato on Sept 9, 2019 12:19:47 GMT
During his recently pastoral visit to Africa Pope Francis sported a fetching leopard skin over his chasuble at mass thus annoying Vatican II noble simplicity types, traditionalists and environmentalists .
This Tina Turner/Rod Stewart inspired number must have been rather impractical in the African heat. Or maybe it's winter there. Geography is not my strong point.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2019 16:55:20 GMT
Pope Francis planted a tree at the opening of the Amazon synod, prompting some to draw parallels with pagan nature worship.
I think some of the criticism of the Pope gets overheated at times.
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Post by Séamus on Oct 9, 2019 11:55:11 GMT
Pope Francis planted a tree at the opening of the Amazon synod, prompting some to draw parallels with pagan nature worship. I think some of the criticism of the Pope gets overheated at times. There's nothing wrong there if it's just about conserving trees,but good luck to Vatican gardeners keeping a tree from the Amazon alive over winter. An article from a British paper this week, marking the Centennial of their Forestry Commission,stated that England is in fact 5% more forested now than it was during the First World War,where the lowest ebb was reached,largely because of the war itself,and only 5% less than the time of the Domesday book,however accurate that was. Some animals are recovering slowly also,choughs have crossed from Ireland to Cornwall in recent years- they're featured on Cornwall's coat-of-arms but were extinct for some time there. Unlikely that we ever get the full conservation story from any quarters. I recently read about the old BBC ZooQuest show and their African pitstop to film Elsa shortly after the publication of BornFree but before the film. The 'english' portrayal by McKenna and Hampshire of Mrs Adamson, AustroGerman by accent and temperament, was seemingly as fictional as the onscreen Mrs VonTrapp. The couple reportedly argued bitterly- he apparently refused her wish to shoot lionesses who attacked Elsa (which was contradictory- it was the lion's return to the wild state that was notable after all),while Elsa's three offspring (who Mrs Adamson fed with a special herd of goats kept stuffed in a tent) became too familiar with human dwellings,something that Attenborough (a member of Zooquest) suggests may have caused their own early deaths by human hands. The admiration of my youth challenged. But a black-and-white image of young Sir David cautiously stroking Elsa was delightfully iconic to say the least.
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Post by cato on Oct 9, 2019 19:52:16 GMT
Pope Francis planted a tree at the opening of the Amazon synod, prompting some to draw parallels with pagan nature worship. I think some of the criticism of the Pope gets overheated at times. I was rather appalled when I saw the "rituals" surrounding what in fairness is more than a simple tree planting. No one objected to the pope planting trees in the Aras on the last papal visit even though the Irish government had just helped destroy the pro life protection in the constitution a few months prior. I am conscious that we see selective videos on the net but the Vatican seems to have stopped correcting Pope Francis or claiming he is being taken out of context. The Pope seems to have been a little taken back by the rituals and decided not to speak restricting his contribution to the Pater Noster. The wooden figures of the 2 pregnant women bowing to each other in the papal garden seem to have confused the bishops at the following press briefing. They would appear to be some type of feminist emblem. No one has yet claimed they represent Mary and St Elizabeth. In all of this synod it is assumed the Amazonian representatives come in peace and are passive spectators. If I was as oppressed as they are presented I would play up and embarrass my oppressors. This condescending notion that they will not attempt to push their agenda onto a hippy church infatuated with a quasi Marxist theology that has already driven millions into evangelical churches is naive. Why should they respect us when we have ceased respecting our own tradition?
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