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Post by kj on Feb 27, 2018 22:40:01 GMT
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Post by cato on Feb 28, 2018 17:17:37 GMT
I would veer to the view the National Party is a waste of potential. Fianna Fail is the national home of conservatism but has a major blind spot with regard to the EU and emigration. The disgraceful hijacking by the leadership of the Repeal campaign will hopefully backfire on them. Micheal Martin will face a heave if the referendum fails as his stance is brazenly and cynically political.
In passing Sinn Fein should be the natural home of those concerned with preserving Irish Ireland. It still claims to be euro sceptical but you need to look very hard to see the small print. Would a modern Arthur Griffith be a fan of free movement of peoples? I doubt it . But then would he be in Sinn Fein at all?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 28, 2018 20:25:02 GMT
I must say, I really like the approach of the Burkean Journal, giving a voice to all different strands of conservative opinion. That's the same philosophy behind this forum.
I'm not sure what to make of the National Party, to be honest. If they really have a thousand members, that's pretty impressive. I can understand why they don't want to run in elections just for the sake of filling up the ballot paper, that makes sense.
With regard to their Nine Principles here are my views.
A commitment to National Unity: what does this mean? Short of military action, I don't understand how Irish nationalists can do anything except hope that Irish unionists either become a demographic minority in Northern Ireland, or somehow come to accept the idea of a united Ireland.
Belief in a constitutional Republic founded on personal rights and responsibilities: Well, sure. I'm not mad about the concept of a Republic, but realistically, we're not going to become a monarchy in any foreseeable future.
Nation before State: Absolutely.
Subsidiarity as a principle of government: Yes.
An adversarial approach to the EU: And yet, remaining within the EU? I don't see how the NP's stance against mass immigration is compatible with the freedom to travel upon which the EU is built.
Commitment to Free Productive Enterprise: Sure.
Opposition to mass-immigration: Absolutely.
Insistence on the Rights of the Unborn Child: Absolutely.
A complete reform of the criminal justice system: I really wonder about this. Surely conservatives should be VERY careful about tinkering with the law, which may be the example par excellence of a system that has evolved through contact with reality. Are criminal sentences really too soft? Depriving someone of their freedom is such a huge penalty in itself that I hesitate to push for longer penalties.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by cato on Feb 28, 2018 21:07:53 GMT
There is a group I think called SAVE which got a little bit of publicity on RTE recently calling for minimum sentencing for murders and more consideration for victim's (or rather their families) rights. I do think future generations will be aghast at how light some prison sentences are and how innocent people have been murdered by criminals who previously served a prison sentence for taking a life. Similarly we have a very lax attitude to lives lost because of careless/drunk driving.
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Post by shillelagh1212 on Oct 11, 2018 13:57:08 GMT
I would veer to the view the National Party is a waste of potential. Fianna Fail is the national home of conservatism but has a major blind spot with regard to the EU and emigration. The disgraceful hijacking by the leadership of the Repeal campaign will hopefully backfire on them. Micheal Martin will face a heave if the referendum fails as his stance is brazenly and cynically political. In passing Sinn Fein should be the natural home of those concerned with preserving Irish Ireland. It still claims to be euro sceptical but you need to look very hard to see the small print. Would a modern Arthur Griffith be a fan of free movement of peoples? I doubt it . But then would he be in Sinn Fein at all? While I somewhat see the National Party as a waste of potential, I just can't see Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein going back to their roots and actually caring about both Republicanism and a United Ireland. The National Party aims for an Ireland that is both Gaelic, united and free. Fianna Fail might care about Ireland being free, but do they really care about unity? Really care about freedom from the EU? Do they even implement conservative policies on the island? Sinn Fein might care about a united Gaelic Ireland, but do they really care about Ireland being free from the EU? Do they really care about conservative principles domestically? Aside from Renua, who have themselves had their share of ideological fumbles, every single political party says basically the same thing in the Dail.
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Post by rogerbuck on Oct 30, 2020 12:13:02 GMT
I have paid very little attention to the National Party. But I've been looking through different past threads on it here and decided to revive one. I'd like to ask what people think of it now. Also Cato in one of the threads I'm not reviving, you said something that interests me rather a lot - which also amplifies what you said above in this thread: I still believe the best chance of a conservative main stream party is to oust Micheal Martin within Fianna Fail and to postion the party it in a more eurosceptic Ireland First position. Unlikely perhaps , but not as unlikely of a National party breakthrough politically. Really, I find myself very, very interested in any hope at all for FF. So would be very interested in hearing today what people think of the National Party or your point, Cato, years ago that, however unlikely, there is greater hope with FF than The National Party. Again, I am quite, quite ignorant here. Many take to the Internet like ducks to water. But I have quite an aversion to it and my love of old, great books means I find it hard keeping up with current developments. It's like I'd rather be pouring through Fennell or Belloc than be online - so I miss a lot that just comes naturally to many of you.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 31, 2020 14:51:35 GMT
I would veer to the view the National Party is a waste of potential. Fianna Fail is the national home of conservatism but has a major blind spot with regard to the EU and emigration. The disgraceful hijacking by the leadership of the Repeal campaign will hopefully backfire on them. Micheal Martin will face a heave if the referendum fails as his stance is brazenly and cynically political. Could one say that Fianna Fail is like an Ireland´s Tory Party? This question has dogged me ever since I heard anything about Irish politics, about plus two decades ago when a friend and "Irish love" moved to Sweden. I understand it may be hard to compare but will appreciate any hint on yes no or even in-between.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 31, 2020 16:49:06 GMT
I would veer to the view the National Party is a waste of potential. Fianna Fail is the national home of conservatism but has a major blind spot with regard to the EU and emigration. The disgraceful hijacking by the leadership of the Repeal campaign will hopefully backfire on them. Micheal Martin will face a heave if the referendum fails as his stance is brazenly and cynically political. Could one say that Fianna Fail is like an Ireland´s Tory Party? This question has dogged me ever since I heard anything about Irish politics, about plus two decades ago when a friend and "Irish love" moved to Sweden. I understand it may be hard to compare but will appreciate any hint on yes no or even in-between. No, they're not Tories. Just a catch-all party like Fine Gael. They do have some socially conservative backbenchers but not many.
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Post by cato on Oct 31, 2020 17:02:23 GMT
I would veer to the view the National Party is a waste of potential. Fianna Fail is the national home of conservatism but has a major blind spot with regard to the EU and emigration. The disgraceful hijacking by the leadership of the Repeal campaign will hopefully backfire on them. Micheal Martin will face a heave if the referendum fails as his stance is brazenly and cynically political. Could one say that Fianna Fail is like an Ireland´s Tory Party? This question has dogged me ever since I heard anything about Irish politics, about plus two decades ago when a friend and "Irish love" moved to Sweden. I understand it may be hard to compare but will appreciate any hint on yes no or even in-between. Most Fianna Fail faithful would explode if you compared themselves to the British Tories. But here goes....! Both would see themselves as the patriotic, traditional, nationalist, Pro agriculture, pro family (No longer alas for either) and pro Church (alas ditto)party. Both traditionally rarely produced thinkers or ideologues but were instinctively conservative with a small c. That has changed with a strong emphasis on personal liberty in both parties. Both are now liberal parties socially and economically with socially conservative rumps. Fianna Fail in theory are more economically left wing. It would be fairer to say it has a history of economic populism looking after the economically vulnerable while maintaining close links with business often to the extent of major corruption unfortunately. The Tories have delivered a nationalist Brexit a result the former Irish Ireland Fianna Fail is hostile to , not only because of challenges to our interests as a state but because of a deep devotion to the EU project on the part of the Irish political establishment.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 31, 2020 18:33:30 GMT
Thanks, these posts gives better explanations than what I had heard before.
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Post by SedNomini on Nov 3, 2020 23:34:37 GMT
This is interesting. What are the prospects of an occupation of FF by Catholic Nationalists?, because if none, then it's NP or bust as far as I can tell
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Post by cato on Nov 4, 2020 10:04:41 GMT
This is interesting. What are the prospects of an occupation of FF by Catholic Nationalists?, because if none, then it's NP or bust as far as I can tell Taking over an existing party has usually been a tactic of the far left as we saw recently when Corbyn and his allies took over the British Labour party. That ended in failure largely due to Corbyns character flaws and his misreading of patriotic working class support for Brexit but it could have produced a hard left British government had he succeeded. Starting off a political party from scratch is very hard and normally ends in failure. Progressives have infiltrated all major parties since the 1960s. The Irish Labour party once contained people who were socially conservative and explicitly catholic and anti communist. Perhaps hypothetically the right could use the same (Very sucessful) tactic? There are two problems with this strategy. 1)You can't make it too obvious until you succeed in getting control. 2) The conservative Fianna Fail wing show no desire at the moment to brand themselves explicitly as Ireland's right wing party. In Irish public life the terms right/conservative are toxic so a rebrand would probably be best. The National Party are also failing to compete at local level on bread and butter items to gain a foothold. Almost every other populist movement has campaigned strongly on combating corruption , law and order etc. There is plenty of material in Ireland for a new party to capitalise on.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 4, 2020 11:40:44 GMT
I think any future Irish conservative party is going to have to be like Aontú. As Cato says, explicit conservatism seems to be electoral poison here. Aontú seem to have achieved some traction through more friendly rhetoric and through fusing "soft nationalism' with left of centre economics and a pro-life, pro-faith message. I think this might be as far right as you can go in Ireland and still be viable.
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Post by SedNomini on Nov 5, 2020 23:18:28 GMT
I think as Catholics we have a hugely popular message for the Irish. We should be hyper anti-rootless-Capitalism (anti-state-sponsored usury, anti the reduction of all things to the quantitative). We need to be anti-mass-migration (the destruction of our organic homelands). Blistering against the degeneracy being pushed on our families (porn, gay agenda, anti-Catholicism...). Pro local development, local decision making, local food sourcing, local programmes for young newlyweds to live and raise children near their parents. With Mass repatriation, there will be loads of housing available. We can take all the popular elements of the dopey-angry left and sell it to Salt-of-the-Earth young working Irish Families. We should ignore the business class, the DINKs class, the rabid left and go straight for the heart of the country, those who depend on a stable society for their families' future. Those who can't up and leave because of duties to elderly, or because they are happier poor in their homes then wealthy in Dublin or America (mea culpa).
This is a bit rambling, but I just heard a lovely voice message from a good friend, and I think we have the fire of Faith, but we aren't very fiery. We need to paint in very bold colours and not be afraid of upsetting those in the Beast Empire. We seem to be very browbeaten when we should be fearless.
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Post by cato on Nov 6, 2020 19:31:17 GMT
I think as Catholics we have a hugely popular message for the Irish. We should be hyper anti-rootless-Capitalism (anti-state-sponsored usury, anti the reduction of all things to the quantitative). We need to be anti-mass-migration (the destruction of our organic homelands). Blistering against the degeneracy being pushed on our families (porn, gay agenda, anti-Catholicism...). Pro local development, local decision making, local food sourcing, local programmes for young newlyweds to live and raise children near their parents. With Mass repatriation, there will be loads of housing available. We can take all the popular elements of the dopey-angry left and sell it to Salt-of-the-Earth young working Irish Families. We should ignore the business class, the DINKs class, the rabid left and go straight for the heart of the country, those who depend on a stable society for their families' future. Those who can't up and leave because of duties to elderly, or because they are happier poor in their homes then wealthy in Dublin or America (mea culpa). This is a bit rambling, but I just heard a lovely voice message from a good friend, and I think we have the fire of Faith, but we aren't very fiery. We need to paint in very bold colours and not be afraid of upsetting those in the Beast Empire. We seem to be very browbeaten when we should be fearless. Have you been to a typical Irish parish recently or heard an average Irish homily at mass? I know we have Covid restrictions at present but the average Irish parish is basically a group of ageing middle class people quite happy with their economic and social lot. If there is ever a clash between their secular and religious views the secular inevitably triumps. They are completely resistant to any change to their comfortable but rapidly vanishing cocoon like existence. I am just wondering with the mass repatriation you call for are we going to take back our emigrants too?
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