séamus (on his father's phone)
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Post by séamus (on his father's phone) on Dec 27, 2018 7:08:00 GMT
When the current allegations emerged Pell left Rome to go home to face the music....etc...br] I wonder why the secrecy? If Pell is guilty as Saville was why not shout it from the roof tops and vindicate his victims? Australian secrecy in this case looks like something from Red China frankly. I.....etc...... If anything they're probably still cautious after the disappointment of the Archbishop Wilson of Adelaide case. He was charged with not reporting disclosed allegations reputedly made to him as a young priest. As one of these was reportedly in Confession it was almost a test-case also. His original conviction was an explosive news story, the choice of home-detention over jail an anti-climax, the eventual overturning of the verdict in a higher court made it altogether a non-event, even if he did retire his see in the interim. (not necessarily finished yet though, prosecutors have one more echelon of court to try) ..............etc... A friend decided on his own bat last week(never a good thing I know) to register his ongoing opposition to gay marriage on the first anniversary of the bill being passed in Canberra by handing a letter into the state premier, which eventually someone took off him. The Anti-Terrorism Squad have been in touch and he has an interview with them on Tuesday morning. whatever of Pell,it's been announced that prosecutors won't continue with Wilson's case. My friend's meeting went ok, despite the rather ominous omen of the anti-terrorist policewoman being named Ms.Herod. I looked the name up, having a more amiable phone last week, apparently it's a Scottish name, derived from Scots gaelic
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Post by cato on Feb 28, 2019 14:26:23 GMT
The Pell verdict is now public and he is officially guilty and in jail but planning an appeal.
The details seem bizarre and I am surprised a jury believed it. I wonder is anti catholicism playing a similar role that anti Irish sentiment played in 1970s Britian when the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 were rapidly and falsely convicted in a very hostile environment.
I met Pell once and am shocked by what happened. I pray he is innocent ,and if so, will be vindicated rapidly.
Pell's well paid barrister also made some very ill chosen remarks. With friends like that ...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 28, 2019 15:05:34 GMT
The Pell verdict is now public and he is officially guilty and in jail but planning an appeal. The details seem bizarre and I am surprised a jury believed it. I wonder is anti catholicism playing a similar role that anti Irish sentiment played in 1970s Britian when the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 were rapidly and falsely convicted in a very hostile environment. I met Pell once and am shocked by what happened. I pray he is innocent ,and if so, will be vindicated rapidly. Pell's well paid barrister also made some very ill chosen remarks. With friends like that ... Given that you can never be ABSOLUTELY sure, and nobody's story should be dismissed out of hand, I must admit I'm extremely sceptical of this. If you read the details, they don't really add up-- he is accused of assaulting two choirboys and as far as I can make out one of them, now dead, actually denied it happened. The accuser only made the accusation after the first one died. I can't find the article where I read that now, so I'm not one hundred per cent sure it's correct, but I think it s.
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Post by Séamus on Feb 28, 2019 23:23:10 GMT
The Pell verdict is now public and he is officially guilty and in jail but planning an appeal. The details seem bizarre and I am surprised a jury believed it. I wonder is anti catholicism playing a similar role that anti Irish sentiment played in 1970s Britian when the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 were rapidly and falsely convicted in a very hostile environment. I met Pell once and am shocked by what happened. I pray he is innocent ,and if so, will be vindicated rapidly. Pell's well paid barrister also made some very ill chosen remarks. With friends like that ... The media were allowed to report from about Monday, but through the last few months it became obvious that it was happening, the Sydney Catholic weekly for one ran articles on cardinals (wrongly) incarcerated like Mindszenty. While our Perth daily did have an unpleasant cover-page it did give a balanced coverage, largely by including two (now, within days) controversial columns by Australia-wide freelancers (Catholic) Miranda Devine, whose journalist father in his latter years wrote much for ANNALS, and (conservative agnostic) Andrew Bolt. They can probably both be found on the internet for anyone interested
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Post by Séamus on Feb 28, 2019 23:29:39 GMT
The Pell verdict is now public and he is officially guilty and in jail but planning an appeal. The details seem bizarre and I am surprised a jury believed it. I wonder is anti catholicism playing a similar role that anti Irish sentiment played in 1970s Britian when the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 were rapidly and falsely convicted in a very hostile environment. I met Pell once and am shocked by what happened. I pray he is innocent ,and if so, will be vindicated rapidly. Pell's well paid barrister also made some very ill chosen remarks. With friends like that ... Given that you can never be ABSOLUTELY sure, and nobody's story should be dismissed out of hand, I must admit I'm extremely sceptical of this. If you read the details, they don't really add up-- he is accused of assaulting two choirboys and as far as I can make out one of them, now dead, actually denied it happened. The accuser only made the accusation after the first one died. I can't find the article where I read that now, so I'm not one hundred per cent sure it's correct, but I think it s. Someone said that the accuser, whose evidence was solely via videolink, is actually in jail, but I can't confirm that. There's a lot of things that are unprecedented about the reaction, including disbelieving articles published in print media and former prime ministers John Howard and Tony Abbott giving character references after the original verdict last December.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 6, 2019 9:15:40 GMT
A good analysis of the Cardinal Pell case by Ed Condon of the Catholic Herald: Pell’s accuser offered a graphic account of being sexually abused by Pell in a busy Melbourne cathedral one Sunday morning in 1996. The accuser said another boy was abused at the same time; but that boy denied multiple times having been abused. Since he died in 2014, the court could not hear his testimony.
Absent any other witnesses, other factors were supposed to help the jury weigh the allegations:
Do the circumstances of time and place accord with the victim’s narrative?
Does the abuse fit within a recognizable pattern of other behavior or allegations?
Are there similarities between the allegations and other known cases of sexual abuse?
These questions are contextual and imperfect, but they have value.
There is, for example, hardly ever a one-time sexual abuser of children. An escalating pattern of behavior is nearly always apparent. Abuse also usually follows a period of “grooming behavior” in which the victim is gradually isolated physically and emotionally with the abuser. The act of abuse itself, and the circumstances of time and place, are often chillingly familiar; sexual abuse tends to follow distinct patterns.
Observers have noted that allegations against Pell fit none of those patterns.
Pell was convicted of sexually assaulting the victim twice: one encounter an incidence of groping in a hallway, the other, at which the other boy was present, was said to take place after a 10:30 Mass in Melbourne’s cathedral.
Pell is supposed to have managed to abuse the boys simultaneously, while still vested from Mass – something witnesses testified would have been nearly physically impossible for him to do. The event was said to have taken place in a public space at its most crowded time. Pell was shown to have rarely been in that place during the time frame alleged – during the six month window identified by the prosecution, Pell celebrated the 10:30 Mass only twice.
The cardinal is facing no other criminal charges. The attack appears to have been spontaneous, not preceded by any kind of grooming relationship. It is not alleged by experts to conform to any obvious pattern of predatory behavior.
Pell’s defence lawyer made the observation that “only a madman” would attempt to do what Pell has been convicted of doing in the time and place he was found to have done it.Article here.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 7, 2019 11:51:11 GMT
Cardinal Muller has explicitly said he thinks Pell is innocent-- I'm surprised he is so outspoken against the verdict of a court, although I entirely agree with him. www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-mueller-cardinal-pells-conviction-against-all-reason-and-justice#When%3A2019-03-6+17%3A41%3A01Even though I believe Pell is innocent, I'm not so sure of the defence that it couldn't have happened in a busy place immediately after Mass. The fact that it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible, and one often hears of child abusers abusing their victims while the parents were in the next room, etc. I think the fact that the case rests on the testimony of one person, and that the other person supposedly abused denied that such abuse happened, and is now dead, is much more damning.
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Post by cato on Mar 7, 2019 16:48:25 GMT
Cardinal Muller has explicitly said he thinks Pell is innocent-- I'm surprised he is so outspoken against the verdict of a court, although I entirely agree with him. www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-mueller-cardinal-pells-conviction-against-all-reason-and-justice#When%3A2019-03-6+17%3A41%3A01Even though I believe Pell is innocent, I'm not so sure of the defence that it couldn't have happened in a busy place immediately after Mass. The fact that it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible, and one often hears of child abusers abusing their victims while the parents were in the next room, etc. I think the fact that the case rests on the testimony of one person, and that the other person supposedly abused denied that such abuse happened, and is now dead, is much more damning. I too think Pell is innocent but extremely risky abuse (by the abuser) is possible too. In this case the prosecution evidence seems entirely based on two unsubstantiated allegations. The church has by its past coverups created an impression were all clergy are now regarded as paedophiles and there is now a danger of scapegoating any cleric particularly outspoken ones for the unpunished horrors of the recent past.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 8, 2019 2:52:43 GMT
Cardinal Muller has explicitly said he thinks Pell is innocent-- I'm surprised he is so outspoken against the verdict of a court, although I entirely agree with him. www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-mueller-cardinal-pells-conviction-against-all-reason-and-justice#When%3A2019-03-6+17%3A41%3A01Even though I believe Pell is innocent, I'm not so sure of the defence that it couldn't have happened in a busy place immediately after Mass. The fact that it's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible, and one often hears of child abusers abusing their victims while the parents were in the next room, etc. I think the fact that the case rests on the testimony of one person, and that the other person supposedly abused denied that such abuse happened, and is now dead, is much more damning. People can abuse in risky situations, but I'd imagine that, if George Pell was such a sick man there would have to have been many other substantiated cases. As it is any other accusations were too impossible to go to court, although I've noticed that since Pell's imprisonment the accuser in one of the thrown-out cases is now suing the diocese, despite the court dismissing his case a while back. Probably the bit that 'looks bad' for the cardinal is the erratic lives of the two fellows, the one real bit of evidence was an (then)older boy testifying to an anti-authority mood change in one of the two. Which seems contradictory also, if he was indeed in the first place disobeying choir directors and/or teachers by not reporting to the choir room and, indeed, breaking into altar wine. Also, it's absolutely normal for 13 year olds to undergo changes in moods and behaviour. I've actually always thought that there's a danger in choir scholarships, especially when parents are pushing boys who would rather be playing football or something. It's ok for boys that have an innate love of that sort of music, but otherwise (it can be demanding and some choirmasters even try to keep them from things like sport altogether to save them from screaming and protect their voices) a lot will feel isolated and end up without normal heterosexual development. If a choirboy from an elite school turns out to be something he shouldn't have been it's for from positive proof that he was molested by anyone.
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Post by cato on Mar 9, 2019 22:54:30 GMT
The resignation of French Cardinal Barbarin of Lyons after he received 6 month suspended sentence for covering up clerical child abuse brings to three the number of cardinals toppled by the abuse crisis. This to the best of my knowledge is unprecedented in church history. Naturally this has past over the heads of media commentators.
I know George Pell is appealing his sentence but courts are becoming more and more likely to convict high ranking ecclesiastics. Not all have clean hands unfortunately.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 14, 2019 7:58:12 GMT
I only learnt today that Melbourne is different from Sydney or Perth inasmuch as Victoria state doesn't have an option of judge-alone trial for high-profile people and/or cases. There's a high profile case in Perth this year (in fact the man accused of killing three ladies, one had Irish parents, in the 1990s was living five minutes walk from us) and you can really see that it realistically has to be judge only, with so much media hype around the man and the case. Mind you, someone said that most of Melbourne's judges are Freemasons.
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Post by Stephen on Apr 1, 2019 15:20:42 GMT
It seems like a stitch up to me...
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Post by Séamus on Apr 2, 2019 11:54:00 GMT
It seems like a stitch up to me... It may or may not be connected, but lawyers are today saying that the victims who received a capped $50,000aus abuse compensation from Melbourne diocese during Pell's time are free, due to his conviction, to renege on the agreement and continue suing for indefinite amounts. It's interesting also to compare with a current court-case in Minnesota where an African immigrant-cum- policeman is being tried for shooting an Australian-American woman dead- due to the high profile status of the case and a 'JusticeForJustine' movement, the pool of jurors were required yesterday to fill out a questionnaire concerning their feelings about, among other things,Somali migrants and personal dealings with police officers.
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Post by cato on Jun 5, 2019 23:13:52 GMT
Cardinal Pells appeal against his criminal conviction is being held yesterday and today. A successful appeal will enrage the anti catholic lobby while a confirmation of the verdict will be a serious blow to Pell and his generally conservative supporters.
Let justice be done even if the heavens collapse as the Latin proverb put it.
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Post by cato on Aug 21, 2019 19:51:28 GMT
Pell received a negative verdict from a majority of the 3 man court panel that judged his appeal. The minority judge highlighted problems with the evidence of the sole prosecution witness but the other two judges disagreed. Had one of them shared these doubts Pell would be free today .
I was greatly disturbed by the news from Australia last night. Either Pell is the victim of an hysterical anti catholic witch hunt or he is a malicious risk taker who has abused the innocent and betrayed his flock and his many supporters all over the world. Either prospect is appalling. He still has one final appeal. Should that fail Pope Francis is faced with a terrible delemma about what to do with Cardinal Pell in church law.
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