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Aontú
Feb 1, 2019 11:26:09 GMT
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Post by Stephen on Feb 1, 2019 11:26:09 GMT
Let us discuss Aontú (unify) the new all-Ireland political party formed in January 2019 by Peadar Tóibín TD.
I was at the meeting in Belfast this week and Peadar said " We seek the unity of Irish people north and south and to build an Ireland for everyone – Protestant, Catholic, and Dissenter in the tradition of the United Irishmen of 1798. We’ll seek to build an all-Ireland economy to mitigate the worst effects of Brexit, economic justice for all and to protect the right to life.
The party has raised the question for me do we want to join a party like this?
The answer were given this week. They allow free votes on same sex stuff They are classical liberals They believe in pluralism Try to restrict abortion were possible. 32 county Ireland From my understanding a federal Ireland. Free health care, etc. ( Centre left) Eurosceptic party Reduce economic migration (detail need)
There party policy comes out soon. They seem to be a party made up of republican, nationalists, traditional Catholics and prolifers.
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Post by cato on Feb 1, 2019 13:03:08 GMT
It would appear to be the best party currently available. I am not terribly keen on pushing Irish Unity on people who don't want it but I do sense that it will be a distinct possibility in a few decades. By that stage most of those who supported the Provos will be gone which should detoxify Republicanism. So I think I could back a party that wants an agreed respectful unification.
I am a little disapointed Aontu isn't a party that is explicitly pro life just as Sinn Fein is explicitly pro killing the unwanted unborn. From my reading their future TDs would have a free conscience vote like Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. And we know where that ended up. I would hope their reps wouldn't do an abortion "journey" and end up as pro abort zealots. Still as this is the core issue leading to their founding I would hope it won't be a sell out issue in years to come.
I do like its Eurosceptic stance. This should appeal to Nationalists and those fed up with our subject status in the Euro empire. I hope they put up candidates in the May Euro election as this could overturn decades of centralising in Brussels. Eurosceptics are tipped to do well. It is important that there are Irish critics of the EU at the table.
Finally Toibin is an attractive intelligent character unlike some of those who lead the other micro parties. As well as a policy you need someone to sell it convincingly.
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Post by servantofthechief on Feb 1, 2019 16:01:30 GMT
Honestly not good enough. If they are accepted into the establishment they will go the way of literally every other party and either be sidelined to irrelevancy, no matter how many of us vote for them, or they will betray us, no matter how many of us vote for them. We are on the verge of losing our nation and these lads are barely going against the grain let alone righting the ship.
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Aontú
Feb 1, 2019 17:40:40 GMT
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Post by cato on Feb 1, 2019 17:40:40 GMT
Honestly not good enough. If they are accepted into the establishment they will go the way of literally every other party and either be sidelined to irrelevancy, no matter how many of us vote for them, or they will betray us, no matter how many of us vote for them. We are on the verge of losing our nation and these lads are barely going against the grain let alone righting the ship. Do we not have to convince the vast bulk of our people that there may even be a problem? We will be a long time waiting for a perfect party that will get a majority in Dail Eireann. I think we need to work with the imperfect tools left at our disposal.
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Aontú
Feb 1, 2019 18:41:57 GMT
Post by servantofthechief on Feb 1, 2019 18:41:57 GMT
Honestly not good enough. If they are accepted into the establishment they will go the way of literally every other party and either be sidelined to irrelevancy, no matter how many of us vote for them, or they will betray us, no matter how many of us vote for them. We are on the verge of losing our nation and these lads are barely going against the grain let alone righting the ship. Do we not have to convince the vast bulk of our people that there may even be a problem? We will be a long time waiting for a perfect party that will get a majority in Dail Eireann. I think we need to work with the imperfect tools left at our disposal. If you want imperfect tools that may even get something done, you'd be better off with the national party, who are the definition of an imperfect tool, but more strident about every horrifying issue we're up against, then these 'Last year's liberalism is this year's conservatism' failures in waiting. I have no illusions about how horrible their chances are, nor how great our problems are, but we don't have the time for the long haul that it'd take to slowly roll the rocks back. We need something politically disruptive and we needed it ten years ago.
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Post by cato on Feb 2, 2019 11:42:08 GMT
I don't believe politics alone will save us. Our faith is in serious decline and the wider culture and sense of nationhood is in deep trouble. Even if an Irish Franco appeared tomorrow and imposed a National Catholic dictatorship for 40 years we would still be in crisis at the end of it. Look at secularised Spain which is in even worse state than Ireland.
Fundamentally our Civilisation is in crisis. That has been brewing for a couple of centuries and will take a very long time to repair. The rot is very deep. Today's catholic church is in many ways now the greatest leftist NGO. Who saw that coming 6 or 7 years ago?
I see politics especially in Ireland as mostly corrupt. Perhaps Peadar Toibin can do some good but I don't expect him to be a secular messiah. We are in this for the long haul and most of us will probably never see the end of this dark age.
As for the National party I might vote for a specific candidate as a protest but I wouldn't want to see them in power.
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Aontú
Feb 2, 2019 16:51:55 GMT
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Post by cato on Feb 2, 2019 16:51:55 GMT
Patricia Casey (the psychiatrist) discusses the new party in today's Irish Independent. She points out a new party will always have difficulties breaking through in modern Irish politics , but there is an urgent need to challenge political and ideological group think in Ireland.
Her articles are always worth a read. She has written very movingly recently about the death of her son.
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Post by servantofthechief on Feb 2, 2019 20:33:13 GMT
Then I cant see what else I can say to you other than the fact you must have hope. Yes this rot has been ongoing for centuries, but that is why a disruption is neccessary now. Trump is hardly going to save America from its prophecised dissolution but what he has done in two years has been more than anyone could have hoped for even just five years ago, Europe is undergoing increasingly re-traditionalisation right across the board, all of them with imperfect parties in power. I am not saying a revolution will fix everything I am saying we must not fall for the fallacy that we actually HAVE the time neccessary that would take to properly fix everything perfectly. We don't and the powers that be know this, and would sooner freeze out or co-opt any of the parties we could possibly elect that might begin righting the ship then even give us the foot in the door. We would make the mistake the neocons have been forcing American conservatives to make time and time again, that is, believing we can fix this in the ordinary cycle of elections while each cycle we'd lose more and more of our country.
Believe me if and when we actually start making actual inroads into changing the country, our left wing will rise up and attack us physically. They are already doing so in America, Antifa is doing so in Europe and Brasil's left is actively allying with criminal elements and SHOOTING at Bolsonaro's government there. They will do the same here, the only reason they wont is because they correctly perceive our isolation and demoralisation, the second we start getting things done is the second the masks come off and the billy clubs come out, these parties like Aontú from policies alone are by definition the old last-year's-liberalism-this-year's-conservatism that is meant to keep us distracted and hoping in false prophets, just like the republicans in America have been for the last 40 years. Our country is being flooded with immigrents, our birthrates are barely above replacement rates, our women are being all but coerced to avoid having babies in their primes by either constant propaganda to pursue careers and now, God forgive us, with Abortion tempting them. We. Don't. Have. Time.
Despite this black pill I am hopeful because disruption does not necessarily need to come in the form of a party or a secular saviour (I have never advocated for this, I asked only for disruption, which the NP definitely would provide if they got serious support), sooner or later the housing bubble is Dublin is going to pop and Brexit will disrupt us economically even further (and yes in the long term this is going to be a good thing, it's just going to suck hard in the short term), and put the absolute lie to the economic improvement our government has been shovelling us to keep us pacified and to quell our growing angr. When it becomes clear that all of our suffering in the past decade has been for nought, less then nothing even, resulting in the very land being stolen out from under us, we will see anger in this country like we have never seen before. And Irishmen will don the Yellow Vests.
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Post by cato on Feb 3, 2019 22:46:59 GMT
I am deeply pessimistic about many things but my faith is based on the hope God alone brings. I do believe every individual must do all in their power to resist the darkness of our time.
Many conservative types are still in deep denial as to the extent of the current crisis in the west and imagine the right leader or a few conservative judges will turn the tide. I am not suggesting we give up or abandon politics but we need to be brutally realistic. Conservatism in Ireland has as much support as the radical left had in the 1930s. We Irish are late comers to liberalism and we will resist any threats to that liberal order. Most Irish people are perfectly happy with secular liberalism. There is no silent conservative majority any more.
The EU may collapse as rapidly as communism. Our economy is based on foreigners investing here who may sell up and abandon us at any time. The future is uncertain and it can be difficult to predict. Change will come when it is forced on us.
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Aontú
Feb 4, 2019 11:44:19 GMT
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 4, 2019 11:44:19 GMT
I am deeply pessimistic about many things but my faith is based on the hope God alone brings. I do believe every individual must do all in their power to resist the darkness of our time. Many conservative types are still in deep denial as to the extent of the current crisis in the west and imagine the right leader or a few conservative judges will turn the tide. I am not suggesting we give up or abandon politics but we need to be brutally realistic. Conservatism in Ireland has as much support as the radical left had in the 1930s. We Irish are late comers to liberalism and we will resist any threats to that liberal order. Most Irish people are perfectly happy with secular liberalism. There is no silent conservative majority any more. The EU may collapse as rapidly as communism. Our economy is based on foreigners investing here who may sell up and abandon us at any time. The future is uncertain and it can be difficult to predict. Change will come when it is forced on us. The victory of liberalism in Ireland is now total and I am hoping that will be its ultimate undoing-- there is nowhere left to go and the philosophy does not satisfy in itself, having no vision of ultimate meaning besides more shattering of taboos and quests for personal fulfilment. Is this wishful thinking? I don't know. I certainly don't make it as a prediction. Hope for the best and plan (and pray) for the worst...
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Aontú
Feb 4, 2019 12:14:41 GMT
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Post by Marybrigid on Feb 4, 2019 12:14:41 GMT
Agree with you my own sentiments about Ireland
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Post by assisi on Feb 5, 2019 11:32:05 GMT
If the new party at least stood for two fundamental things, being pro-life and being for national sovereignty, then that would be a positive starting platform.
I saw on their facebook page an argument developing between those who are anti all abortions and those who are against abortion but with some exceptions. The party therefore would need to give as much clarity as possible on this issue from the outset.
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Post by cato on Feb 5, 2019 15:58:04 GMT
If the new party at least stood for two fundamental things, being pro-life and being for national sovereignty, then that would be a positive starting platform. I saw on their facebook page an argument developing between those who are anti all abortions and those who are against abortion but with some exceptions. The party therefore would need to give as much clarity as possible on this issue from the outset. It says a lot about mistaken notions of conscience that it appears even at this stage that a pro abortion stance could be taken by someone in the new party. A few years ago Renua also fell into this trap becoming a pro life party which allowed members to be pro abortion in practice. This needs to be a red line issue. Unfortunately this issue is literally one of the few real red line issues in our politics today. If you are pro choice join Labour, Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail , Fine Gael , People before Profit , the Social Democrats, Solidarity ....
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Post by cato on Feb 8, 2019 22:02:30 GMT
Peadar Toibin has clarified the new party will insist its deputies support the pro life position and that it will campaign to reform and eventually get rid of the Harris abortion act.
It is interesting to see Minister Harris now burn up all the liberal credits he gained by ruthlessly pushing the abortion agenda. His incompetent management of the National Children's Hospital budget may see his downfall. The cervical cancer debacle hasn't gone away and he also has a growing nurses strike on his hands. If he survives it will be mainly due to his role in striking down the 8th ammendment.
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Aontú
Feb 9, 2019 9:23:16 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Feb 9, 2019 9:23:16 GMT
Peadar Toibin has clarified the new party will insist its deputies support the pro life position and that it will campaign to reform and eventually get rid of the Harris abortion act. It is interesting to see Minister Harris now burn up all the liberal credits he gained by ruthlessly pushing the abortion agenda. His incompetent management of the National Children's Hospital budget may see his downfall. The cervical cancer debacle hasn't gone away and he also has a growing nurses strike on his hands. If he survives it will be mainly due to his role in striking down the 8th ammendment. It can be interesting, if heartwrenching in a way, to see how hapless white males can actually become after they've embraced the feminized and minority-ized ideology of the Parties or movements that they're stationed in often becoming victims of the same. Ralph Northam and Liam Neeson were nothing less than pitiful. I've noticed it in the Australian Labor Party also. It may be hard to compare with Ireland, as legal abortion is more deeply rooted elsewhere, but an American activist once mentioned that fighting the same was like eating an apple- it has to be done bite by bite. Movements have to be realistic about what they can achieve.
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