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Post by Tomas on Sept 18, 2019 10:34:58 GMT
Don´t know how to articulate this for an outsider long-time puzzling question but here´s a try: How do Irishmen conciliate between Catholic credo and the Nationalist notion of rebel?? While the historical setting comes clear enough it can no less be a difficult thing to grasp how exactly a glorious rebel can not be in hazard to Christianity Catechism-like. I hope not to state any non-existing problem or just be blunt stupid. The honest thought behind is simply to "get" if the use of rebel is only a matter of language, i.e. that the word has in some way naturally developed into a coherent term for resistance due to historical circumstances. Or if the connotations between what juridically is known as so-called justified warfare and Irish history has made it a non-problem and given it full license to kill so to speak (no puns intended). For me as non-Irish it sounds like a most Irish thing to tell stories and sing songs etc about various rebels, and at the same time a deeply problematic thing when one thinks about all connected to the older associations of the same term. The chilling stories of evil which are to be found in Holy Scripture don´t make it very easy for changing the word into political fights. Tricky language to say the least. Any brief summary on this subject would be curious to read and learn about. (If history´s chief rebel were the dark Prince of this world, and Christ the King was most definitely not a rebel, how could the glorious rebels have their badge of honour "rebel" upon them when entering in Heaven???)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 18, 2019 11:09:52 GMT
Don´t know how to articulate this for an outsider long-time puzzling question but here´s a try: How do Irishmen conciliate between Catholic credo and the Nationalist notion of rebel?? While the historical setting comes clear enough it can no less be a difficult thing to grasp how exactly a glorious rebel can not be in hazard to Christianity Catechism-like. I hope not to state any non-existing problem or just be blunt stupid. The honest thought behind is simply to "get" if the use of rebel is only a matter of language, i.e. that the word has in some way naturally developed into a coherent term for resistance due to historical circumstances. Or if the connotations between what juridically is known as so-called justified warfare and Irish history has made it a non-problem and given it full license to kill so to speak (no puns intended). For me as non-Irish it sounds like a most Irish thing to tell stories and sing songs etc about various rebels, and at the same time a deeply problematic thing when one thinks about all connected to the older associations of the same term. The chilling stories of evil which are to be found in Holy Scripture don´t make it very easy for changing the word into political fights. Tricky language to say the least. Any brief summary on this subject would be curious to read and learn about. (If history´s chief rebel were the dark Prince of this world, and Christ the King was most definitely not a rebel, how could the glorious rebels have their badge of honour "rebel" upon them when entering in Heaven???) I think G.K. Chesterton wrote The Man Who is Thursday to answer this question! As you remember, the only real anarchist in that book is the one who objects to all authority ON PRINCIPLE, even the authority of ethics and morality. I think it is this kind of cosmic rebellion which is Satanic, rather than a rebellion against this or that authority. But I DO think that the "glamour" of rebellion entered a little too deeply into Ireland during the long struggle for independence, so it's a very perceptive question. I think this explains, partly, why Ireland is so liberal today. (By the way, I personally don't think you have to agree with a song to sing it. You can just like it as a song.)
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Post by Tomas on Sept 18, 2019 13:03:41 GMT
Don´t know how to articulate this for an outsider long-time puzzling question but here´s a try: How do Irishmen conciliate between Catholic credo and the Nationalist notion of rebel?? While the historical setting comes clear enough it can no less be a difficult thing to grasp how exactly a glorious rebel can not be in hazard to Christianity Catechism-like. I hope not to state any non-existing problem or just be blunt stupid. The honest thought behind is simply to "get" if the use of rebel is only a matter of language, i.e. that the word has in some way naturally developed into a coherent term for resistance due to historical circumstances. Or if the connotations between what juridically is known as so-called justified warfare and Irish history has made it a non-problem and given it full license to kill so to speak (no puns intended). For me as non-Irish it sounds like a most Irish thing to tell stories and sing songs etc about various rebels, and at the same time a deeply problematic thing when one thinks about all connected to the older associations of the same term. The chilling stories of evil which are to be found in Holy Scripture don´t make it very easy for changing the word into political fights. Tricky language to say the least. Any brief summary on this subject would be curious to read and learn about. (If history´s chief rebel were the dark Prince of this world, and Christ the King was most definitely not a rebel, how could the glorious rebels have their badge of honour "rebel" upon them when entering in Heaven???) I think G.K. Chesterton wrote The Man Who is Thursday to answer this question! As you remember, the only real anarchist in that book is the one who objects to all authority ON PRINCIPLE, even the authority of ethics and morality. I think it is this kind of cosmic rebellion which is Satanic, rather than a rebellion against this or that authority. But I DO think that the "glamour" of rebellion entered a little too deeply into Ireland during the long struggle for independence, so it's a very perceptive question. I think this explains, partly, why Ireland is so liberal today. (By the way, I personally don't think you have to agree with a song to sing it. You can just like it as a song.) I never read the novel (me to blame!) but that explanation almost answers the whole matter, and in one single blow too. Evil is far worse than single-minded dogmatic anarchism to be sure so his argument will not suit those who disapprove of broad strokes in solving problems. It suits me well enough as a basic line anyway. Turned down to simply "rebellion against this or that authority" it gets much more like average politics in nature. To tell from today´s Roman Church scene in our media this includes plenty, much more than enough, troubles in itself. But absolutely not the first crucial problems of evil rebels. So this may settle the disturbing doubts quite a bit. If latter times liberal Ireland has developed some kind of modernist rebellion complex was a new picture for me. Surprising perhaps but also possible. We should have had to put a pundit like the late Dr Freud or perhaps Mr Sherlock Holmes Esq on the case for any clarity on Darkness of such morally minuscle magnitude? The note on songs is a popular familiar one. I suppose you are all in the right, and apply the principle liberally myself, but at the same time housing a few doubts even in that case now and then. The Irish rebel songs I have always loved whole-heartedly, lyrics and all, so it´s rather other kinds that makes the questions there. Lapsed listening to Black Sabbath "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" as late as a few days back, or on a brighter side diverse country or other songs about joys a long distance away from the regular austere Saints´ department, one can wonder also what one really does when "liking" it?
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Rebels?
Sept 19, 2019 3:49:17 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Sept 19, 2019 3:49:17 GMT
I think G.K. Chesterton wrote The Man Who is Thursday to answer this question!..etc... a song.) I never read the novel (me to blame!) but that explanation....etc.... Lapsed listening to Black Sabbath "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" as late as a few days back,...etc... one can wonder also what one really does when "liking" it? Oversteps my boundaries a bit! I actually found it interesting to hear a few days ago about Chrissie Hynde criticising some of today's more extreme vegan groups, which she described as computer-addicted white-collars, citing also a vegetarian dairy-farm which is constantly under attack. This coming from a wierdo who's protested outside Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets with (persumedly false) blood on her hands. But it was more the Wicca reference that caused me to avoid Pretenders "the maiden, the mother and the crone grown old"(cf hymn to her) I try to be level-headed about these things but one critique I came across stated "Jimmy Page, lead guitarist of LedZepplin expressed himself similarly:'a Rock concert is really nothing else but a ritual, at a LZ concert the aim is to release energy for the performers and the audience. To achieve this you have to tap on the sources of magical power, however dangerous that may be'"(cf rock where from?where to?,M.Basilea Schlink) I like Chesterton's short stories, but couldn't really make heads nor tails of Man Who Was Thursday, Notting Hill or ManAlive. I remember reading that even the ageing members of groups like Wolfe Tones were split(sometimes literally)about whether to continue the rebel songs after the Good Friday Agreement. Post-millenium, The Moorlough Shore seems many times more popular for recording artists than The Foggy Dew, which probably actually made it's tune as popular as it is today
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Post by Tomas on Sept 19, 2019 10:32:42 GMT
Led Zeppelin etc aside (I never was into these groups and only related of one or two exceptions to the rule musically) what do you make of a "dirty" story song like this example Seamus? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KbS5t0NuOU The lyrics of this kind can make me doubt the validity of "one can like any kind of music". You don´t have to subscribe to like a song of course, but it feels not-kosher enough to hesitate in my case. Another example would be a twilight area artist like Santana (Black Magic Woman?). Some of his output was played at an annual party related to my workplace a few years back and I even felt inclined to go to confesion for having showed liking or applauded in public to semi junk I didn´t really like much in the first place. Or most anything performed by intelligent (and definitely sometimes fun) virtuoso Frank Zappa (ex. Catholic Girls of Joe´s Garage, Camarillo Brillo, Titties´n´Beer, Broadway the Hard Way).
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 19, 2019 11:01:31 GMT
I like some very naughty songs like Blurred Lines.
Although that might be as much a cause for shame musically as it is morally!
I am currently fasting from pop and rock music, hoping it detoxes my musical receptivity I will finally be able to appreciate classical music, including William Furterburger, a legendary composer Tomas admires.
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Post by Tomas on Sept 19, 2019 11:29:47 GMT
Achtung: demon mastermind maestro Wilhelm Fürtwängler was in his heyday arguably the greatest conductor of all times (no small words are too modest when it comes to Germanic ultra-talent?) so there are fair hopes in the dark forest even for former Sweet fans like Mr O´Ceallaigh of Dublin!
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Post by Tomas on Sept 19, 2019 11:51:21 GMT
But I DO think that the "glamour" of rebellion entered a little too deeply into Ireland during the long struggle for independence --- I think this explains, partly, why Ireland is so liberal today. Got curious over this yesterday. Could it be taken to mean that liberal today is actually, by those who have taken that view, interpreted as taking a side like the real good rebels of the stories? Against what then? The only thing I can imagine would be an imaginary foe of a "conservative past". There has often been mentioned how Irish media uses the Church painted as an enemy against freedom. A few other posts have indicated broad trends in some manner near to that.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 19, 2019 12:33:44 GMT
But I DO think that the "glamour" of rebellion entered a little too deeply into Ireland during the long struggle for independence --- I think this explains, partly, why Ireland is so liberal today. Got curious over this yesterday. Could it be taken to mean that liberal today is actually, by those who have taken that view, interpreted as taking a side like the real good rebels of the stories? Against what then? The only thing I can imagine would be an imaginary foe of a "conservative past". There has often been mentioned how Irish media uses the Church painted as an enemy against freedom. A few other posts have indicated broad trends in some manner near to that. What I meant was, through Irish history, there was unfortunately so much emphasis on English oppression that, once that struggle was over, the habits of rebelliousness and anger and victimhood endured and needed new enemies-- so it found the Catholic Church, Irish traditions, etc. etc. Basically everything old and venerable.
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Post by Tomas on Sept 19, 2019 13:33:15 GMT
Got curious over this yesterday. Could it be taken to mean that liberal today is actually, by those who have taken that view, interpreted as taking a side like the real good rebels of the stories? Against what then? The only thing I can imagine would be an imaginary foe of a "conservative past". There has often been mentioned how Irish media uses the Church painted as an enemy against freedom. A few other posts have indicated broad trends in some manner near to that. What I meant was, through Irish history, there was unfortunately so much emphasis on English oppression that, once that struggle was over, the habits of rebelliousness and anger and victimhood endured and needed new enemies-- so it found the Catholic Church, Irish traditions, etc. etc. Basically everything old and venerable. And by habits you mean something inner, intuitive cognitive or emotional forces rather than reasoning thinking modes?
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Rebels?
Sept 20, 2019 2:08:53 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Sept 20, 2019 2:08:53 GMT
Led Zeppelin etc aside (I never was into these groups and only related of one or two exceptions to the rule musically) what do you make of a "dirty" story song like this example Seamus? www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KbS5t0NuOU The lyrics of this kind can make me doubt the validity of "one can like any kind of music". You don´t have to subscribe to like a song of course, but it feels not-kosher enough to hesitate in my case. Another example would be a twilight area artist like Santana (Black Magic Woman?). Some of his output was played at an annual party related to my workplace a few years back and I even felt inclined to go to confesion for having showed liking or applauded in public to semi junk I didn´t really like much in the first place. Or most anything performed by intelligent (and definitely sometimes fun) virtuoso Frank Zappa (ex. Catholic Girls of Joe´s Garage, Camarillo Brillo, Titties´n´Beer, Broadway the Hard Way). Your preamble made me apprehensive to watch at this stage... But I suppose it's a matter of the musical quality/risque content/poetic quality ratio. From the little I know about him Santana seems to be a sad case, badly abused as a child, talented but eventually finding solace in estoteric practices, I know one traditional-mass lady who's a fan. Then, on the other end of the scale, I know one homeschool family who have banned The Sound of Music as promoting disregard for parental authority, especially the eldest girl's dangerous slipping-out-at-night. I guess The Spinning Wheel wouldn't pass muster for them
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Rebels?
Sept 20, 2019 5:50:23 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Sept 20, 2019 5:50:23 GMT
One of the more extreme ballads is called Táimse Ím Chodladh (I am dreaming), not sure if the original verses have an English translation available on internet. Dolores Keane, formerly of DeDannan, is one singer to have made a recording of this
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Post by Tomas on Sept 20, 2019 8:03:13 GMT
The Foggy Dew, Old Fenian Gun, James Connolly, Ireland´s 32 and many others I´ve forgot can stand the test of time too...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2019 12:50:33 GMT
God's curse on you England, you cruel-hearted monster Your deeds they would shame all the devils in Hell....
From "James Connolly". As an ardent anglophile, I am perfectly happy to heartily sing these words!
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Post by Tomas on Sept 25, 2019 13:09:03 GMT
God's curse on you England, you cruel-hearted monster Your deeds they would shame all the devils in Hell.... From "James Connolly". As an ardent anglophile, I am perfectly happy to heartily sing these words! James Connolly in the series 16 Lives is now ordered and on its way by the post. Tragically typical I still have found no time for the other two bought from the series so they are all only on my bucket list for future reading nights.
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