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Post by Séamus on Jul 28, 2021 8:56:04 GMT
One of the reasons the Pope gave for this move was that the Latin Mass movement reject Vatican II. How fair or otherwise is this? The strange thing is,of course, the fact that only a handful of Catholics anywhere have ever read any of the documents at all. The pieces quoted in the (reformed) Office are almost the only ones I'm familiar with myself (I've possibly read other excerpts through the years). So most rely on the interpretation of others. I remember being loaned a 1965 book by a priest who was against the interim missal of that time. The language was so colourful- 'satanic parody of the sacrifice'- that I really could only read a little way through. Most Catholics rely on the writings of others, whether of this extreme or the liberal extremism. I'm only discovering lately that families who have and do slip in and out of SedeVacantism are not as entirely rare as one might think;some of which do attend SSPX unless a priest considered more authentic passes through,others come and go from diocesan masses. I'd caution any commentators who are optimistic about unity not to write off minor,at least, ruptures just yet. There's probably no real consensus. I doubt whether there's one in ordinary form parishes either. Many people I know will emphasize that the Council wasn't speaking infallibly- the same remark usually thrown about by people of the opposite spectrum at all the moral theology encyclicals that the post-Council popes have issued. I don't understand, myself, why Christ would have instituted a papacy to tell us in the 1950s that Mary assumed into heaven, something that progressive theologians will have a non-literal explanation of anyway. Something must be inspired. Francis issued a new prayer for the ordinary form of tomorrow's feast of St Martha which includes mention of both Mary and Lazarus also. It would be a worthwhile test to see how many parishes have downloaded this in anticipation;how many use the new preface of Mary Magdalene too; how many bishops have insisted on the use and compare with how swiftly or otherwise the same hierarchy have acted on Traditionis? |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 28, 2021 9:43:44 GMT
One of the reasons the Pope gave for this move was that the Latin Mass movement reject Vatican II. How fair or otherwise is this? The strange thing is,of course, the fact that only a handful of Catholics anywhere have ever read any of the documents at all. The pieces quoted in the (reformed) Office are almost the only ones I'm familiar with myself (I've possibly read other excerpts through the years). So most rely on the interpretation of others. I remember being loaned a 1965 book by a priest who was against the interim missal of that time. The language was so colourful- 'satanic parody of the sacrifice'- that I really could only read a little way through. Most Catholics rely on the writings of others, whether of this extreme or the liberal extremism. I'm only discovering lately that families who have and do slip in and out of SedeVacantism are not as entirely rare as one might think;some of which do attend SSPX unless a priest considered more authentic passes through,others come and go from diocesan masses. I'd caution any commentators who are optimistic about unity not to write off minor,at least, ruptures just yet. There's probably no real consensus. I doubt whether there's one in ordinary form parishes either. Many people I know will emphasize that the Council wasn't speaking infallibly- the same remark usually thrown about by people of the opposite spectrum at all the moral theology encyclicals that the post-Council popes have issued. I don't understand, myself, why Christ would have instituted a papacy to tell us in the 1950s that Mary assumed into heaven, something that progressive theologians will have a non-literal explanation of anyway. Something must be inspired. Francis issued a new prayer for the ordinary form of tomorrow's feast of St Martha which includes mention of both Mary and Lazarus also. It would be a worthwhile test to see how many parishes have downloaded this in anticipation;how many use the new preface of Mary Magdalene too; how many bishops have insisted on the use and compare with how swiftly or otherwise the same hierarchy have acted on Traditionis? It's true that only a few Catholics have read the documents. I haven't read them all, though I think I've read the most important. However, I think there's a difference between accepting them without reading them and rejecting them without reading them. It's better to be informed, of course, but surely the first is simply an act of faith. |
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Post by Stephen on Jul 28, 2021 14:35:36 GMT
While faithful Catholics love the Church and her teachings are busy arguing about the TLM and Traditionis Custodes, The German hierarchy and many clergy are in active schism.  |
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Post by cato on Jul 29, 2021 9:30:03 GMT
It's true that only a few Catholics have read the documents. I haven't read them all, though I think I've read the most important. However, I think there's a difference between accepting them without reading them and rejecting them without reading them. It's better to be informed, of course, but surely the first is simply an act of faith.
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Many of those who used to be vocally pro Vatican ii back when people cared about this never read the actual texts either. In fact 30 years ago progressives lamented that Pope John Paul had somehow betrayed or rolled back the reforms. Numerous 3rd rate polemics were sold in catholic book shops calling for a Vatican iii to finish the job. This was the default position of many who are now ultramontane cheer leaders.
The people that sparked the wrath of Francis are largely on line Internet personalities not laity who turned up each week to mass. This is not to belittle them as the Internet is the modern equivalent of the printing press that spread Lutheran theology to such a devastating extent. Indeed several personalities in the current papal circle have called previously for restrictions on individuals who blog as catholics on catholic matters. This dispute about the ancient rite of the Catholic liturgy is also very much a 1970s dispute conducted with 21st century media.
Some clergy even or maybe especially the liberal ones still display old clericalist mentalities beneath the smiling veneer. Thank heavens they don't wield temporal power anymore.
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Post by kj on Aug 6, 2021 16:26:54 GMT
A friend of mine who has managed to get home to Cork for the first time since Covid began tells me that the attendance at St Peter and Paul's Latin Mass on a Sunday has gone, in his rough estimation, from around 30 when he was last there to roughly 150 now. Make of that what you will.
But surely any anguish Trads may be presently feeling must also be assauaged by momentous breaking news:
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Post by Tomas on Aug 8, 2021 19:43:54 GMT
Best comment found this far has been from Raymond Arroyo, Robert Royal and Fr. Gerald Murray: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgDbJ4rGzLIWorth a visit for every single minute in my view (41 mins news comment, dated 22 July so just a week after the ?? ?? but still appropiate). |
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Post by cato on Aug 9, 2021 19:37:34 GMT
Comments on reading the Vatican ii documents earlier remind me of the official encouragement catholics are given to read the Bible. All very fine in theory until they actually do and start taking it seriously. Then some of the same clergy complain of people not understanding nuances and the importance of not taking everything literally. You need to be an expert to interpret properly it would appear.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Aug 10, 2021 7:58:27 GMT
Hey, a heterodox going to be heterodoxical.
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Post by Stephen on Aug 13, 2021 11:02:53 GMT
Thoughts on Traditionis Custodes with Fr. Ripperger & Ryan Grant
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Aug 16, 2021 14:56:08 GMT
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Post by Stephen on Aug 24, 2021 7:58:40 GMT
I wonder how far this will all go?
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Post by Liam on Aug 24, 2021 18:06:08 GMT
Is it me or does anybody else think the attack on tradition and Covid 1984 are linked?
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Post by Séamus on Aug 25, 2021 12:24:54 GMT
Is it me or does anybody else think the attack on tradition and Covid 1984 are linked? Ultimately it's all connected if we listen to Paul telling the Ephesians and us that Christians battle against (fallen) Principalities and Powers,not against human enemies. Whether there's a human conspiracy is something we can't definitively answer. Whether both the attacks on freedom of worship and,in a sense, freedom of liturgy has it's source in the mentality of a particular Vatican regime which is directly or indirectly the result of a particular pontificate will be historically judged. He's not considered an orthodox saviour by everyone,least of all for many traditional mass goers,but John Paul's long pontificate still probably influences the expectations of many Catholics. I can't suggest this for Mr Liam in particular as I don't know what age he is or what era he grew up in,but to many John Paul II's often outspoken and charismatic character made Pius XII seem too ambiguous against Nazism, Paul VI too apathetic and/or liberal and,of course,makes Francis often look like a wrecking ball- it's hard to imagine Karol Wojtyla suggesting that the church is wrongly depicted as being too focused on the abortion issue; despite not encouraging a universal use of the traditional mass like his successor, it's hard to picture John Paul being objective to any group,whether traditional mass societies or more experimental new movement groups that blossomed vocations,restored crumbling unused churches and actually caused a renewal in mass attendance. Does it all point to certain responses under certain pontificates? In that way a 'link' can absolutely be implied. It's even hard to imagine Karol Jozef silencing Mindszenty as his predecessor did- but would he have really acted differently during the Second World War,as convents harboured displaced Jews and minorities? It was a different age of course,just as ours is. What would JP2 or Pius X or Gregory VII have done about suspension of public worship or mandatory vaccination for church entry in 2021? We can only speculate. The image of evangelical Christians staging a protest ceremony at Phoenix Park's papal mass cross some months ago was symbolic in so many ways- other Christians looking to an era of stronger Catholicism... should Catholics wag the finger at the fanaticism but admire it anyway? And only time can judge what the normal line for Catholicism will become in this new microbiology persecution of the 2020s. But we'll,no doubt, see a reckoning of Traditionis Custodes sooner than this. |
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Post by Tomas on Aug 25, 2021 21:01:44 GMT
Is it me or does anybody else think the attack on tradition and Covid 1984 are linked? Ultimately it's all connected if we listen to Paul telling the Ephesians and us that Christians battle against (fallen) Principalities and Powers,not against human enemies. Whether there's a human conspiracy is something we can't definitively answer. Whether both the attacks on freedom of worship and,in a sense, freedom of liturgy has it's source in the mentality of a particular Vatican regime which is directly or indirectly the result of a particular pontificate will be historically judged. He's not considered an orthodox saviour by everyone,least of all for many traditional mass goers,but John Paul's long pontificate still probably influences the expectations of many Catholics. I can't suggest this for Mr Liam in particular as I don't know what age he is or what era he grew up in,but to many John Paul II's often outspoken and charismatic character made Pius XII seem too ambiguous against Nazism, Paul VI too apathetic and/or liberal and,of course,makes Francis often look like a wrecking ball- it's hard to imagine Karol Wojtyla suggesting that the church is wrongly depicted as being too focused on the abortion issue; despite not encouraging a universal use of the traditional mass like his successor, it's hard to picture John Paul being objective to any group,whether traditional mass societies or more experimental new movement groups that blossomed vocations,restored crumbling unused churches and actually caused a renewal in mass attendance. Does it all point to certain responses under certain pontificates? In that way a 'link' can absolutely be implied. It's even hard to imagine Karol Jozef silencing Mindszenty as his predecessor did- but would he have really acted differently during the Second World War,as convents harboured displaced Jews and minorities? It was a different age of course,just as ours is. What would JP2 or Pius X or Gregory VII have done about suspension of public worship or mandatory vaccination for church entry in 2021? We can only speculate. The image of evangelical Christians staging a protest ceremony at Phoenix Park's papal mass cross some months ago was symbolic in so many ways- other Christians looking to an era of stronger Catholicism... should Catholics wag the finger at the fanaticism but admire it anyway? And only time can judge what the normal line for Catholicism will become in this new microbiology persecution of the 2020s. But we'll,no doubt, see a reckoning of Traditionis Custodes sooner than this. Interesting thoughts, absolutely it´s right saying only time will tell, and much need to not ever get lost in unwholesome despair at any time no matter what, and most probably best to remain full in line with the above: times and personalities does have a huge impact. Especially in regard to Church moves through history in hindsight there has always been a strong and stable trend to be found, the various present surroundings of the secular political foul play may appear to turn out being less important than one thinks in the first place. In this case it´s the worst atmosphere "in the air" I have ever experienced in a psychological sense in my life (but then I never personally connected with earlier wars far away or other horrors in the world in the same way as in our internet era) and yet, much or most of the orchestrated World business, masonic or not - unrest, draconian lockdowns masks injections and all - will by all probability eventually make some sense as simply something fairly less unsettling than it seemed under siege. Likely also someday lead to a somehow better understanding of the connected Spiritual (and anti-Spiritual, Demonic) hidden aspects of the failures. Ultimately everything in this is about sins. While interiorly absorbing all "watching" and trying to make sense via mass media, however well made the tiny minority best parts of them may be, in our day we can practically only get an inch of the wider picture. Evil/s WITHIN the Church hierarchy is the most deplorable mystery of it all. Visible sin still of course easier to address than the invisible. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 26, 2021 9:53:25 GMT
Is it me or does anybody else think the attack on tradition and Covid 1984 are linked? I wrote an article for the Burkean about the decline of poetry in the last fifty years or so. One commenter made a link with the liturgical changes after Vatican II. Might there be such a thing as "Traddie goggles?" (Ducks for cover.) |
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