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Post by Séamus on Jul 17, 2021 7:28:20 GMT
If,as rumoured, the document was the result of three drafts,which had actually mellowed along the way, I'm glad we're spared the original.
I wouldn't deny that the parochial problems alluded to do indeed exist- division in parishes, seminarians not being upfront about their intentions until after ordination, individuals and groups encouraging conspiracy theories about the Vatican Council... But they are just that- parochial problems- that bishops should have been capable of dealing with at a grassroots level. Pope Francis has spoken about the decimation of Catholicism, usually in the context of the European Church and it's properties embracing the refugee and the needy. Something else that can cause decimation is the removal of cornerstones that have nourished people for centuries.
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Post by cato on Jul 17, 2021 8:50:48 GMT
I was utterly disappointed and dismayed by this vindictive mean-spirited document. It is a slap in the face to pope Benedict and seeks to blame traditional catholics for this reversal back to 1970s style restrictions.
I will post more later when I have calmed down. The last time I felt this low was when the Irish people voted to legalise child slaughter in the name of compassion.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 18, 2021 12:23:50 GMT
I was utterly disappointed and dismayed by this vindictive mean-spirited document. It is a slap in the face to pope Benedict and seeks to blame traditional catholics for this reversal back to 1970s style restrictions. I will post more later when I have calmed down. The last time I felt this low was when the Irish people voted to legalise child slaughter in the name of compassion. The death this month of Raffealla Carrà,an Italian entertainer largely unknown to the Anglosphere, nevertheless produced several obituaries,some recalling an early-70s Vatican condemnation when the star exposed her stomach on Italian television. A few years before this Rome had released an apology of sorts following Paul VI's meeting Claudia Cardinale in a miniskirt (I once came across an under-the-lino article about this from a '69 Catholic weekly!). Might seem irrelevant,but just comparing with,in recent years,Katy Perry, who's often shown equal or more depravity and who,shortly after driving two orthodox nuns from their California convent, actually gave lectures on Vatican property about completely secular meditation forms, one sees that we are experiencing a Catholicism that is not only far from Pius X or XII's time,but far even from the church of Paul VI. And who exactly is living the authentic spirit of the Council Fathers will always be a very much open question. In the post-council years countries like Ireland still filled churches in spite of change in liturgy and theology, but any businessman will tell Rome that in 2021 this sort of custom is far from assured if the desired (solid authenticity always assumed) 'product' is not made available. Francis' accompanying letter to bishops has admittedly renewed calls for dignity in the ordinary form,but this is far from the only issue when preserving the older liturgy... (why does a football being carried up to the sanctuary in Rio keep coming to mind?) A recent letter of Pope Francis in relation to the upcoming inaugural Grandparents Day quotes the apocryphal Gospel of James. It seemed a tad unJesuit,but when writing something hagiographical about obscure figures,Joachim in this case,one uses the sources that be. It made me wonder what exactly his borderline was when pruning away layers of tradition that seem unnecessary?, which,to His Holiness obviously includes the centuries of tradition that formed the pre-Novus Ordo mass.
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Post by assisi on Jul 18, 2021 17:07:53 GMT
I was utterly disappointed and dismayed by this vindictive mean-spirited document. It is a slap in the face to pope Benedict and seeks to blame traditional catholics for this reversal back to 1970s style restrictions. I will post more later when I have calmed down. The last time I felt this low was when the Irish people voted to legalise child slaughter in the name of compassion. Why would anyone do this to harmless but, to many, a beautiful evocation of Catholic liturgy and tradition? There is absolutely no reason to go out of your way to destroy or severely restrict the Latin Mass. With all the problems we have in the world why take the time and energy to put down something central to the tradition of the Church? This is something someone would do if they wanted to slowly suck the life out of the Church bit by bit. Let's hope the next Pope withdraws the restrictions.
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2021 9:58:29 GMT
I abandoned practicing the faith for about a decade. Perhaps because I am growing more set in my ways ,I find the average catholic liturgy an ordeal.I gradually began to attend Anglican cathedral ceremonies which combine good music , rigid rubrics and the scriptures. A very wise liberal priest once suggested I avail of the generosity offered by pope Benedict and I returned to regular catholic mass that way.
I like choral music which in its Gregorian and classical forms you never see in your average catholic church. The traditional rite is also deeply embedded in our spiritual and cultural Western heritage.
I don't want to compel every catholic to go to a 1962 rite mass. I would be happy with genuine liturgical diversity. At the moment 99% of parishes seem to settle for a mediocre consensus that all must put up with. Catholicism also includes Eastern rites in communion with Rome so in theory having two main Roman rites should not be an issue.
Francis seems to have overnight swept away Benedicts liturgical generosity. He offered little argument save blaming on line trads for being nasty to him. He uses his power to restrict as he can , but doesn't engage with Benedict's core arguments. Indeed he insists there is only one Roman rite mass, the old rite must and will die out eventually. This I found both ridiculous and sinister. Papal crystal ball gazing and loud assertions will not determine the future shape of our worship of almighty God.
In Dublin at least the regular mass in St Kevins looks safe but there is still a needless horrible air of uncertainty now. No other catholic community has the sword of Damocles hanging over it. This is cruel and in a world where we have real fears it is devastating to know our pope has chosen to create this situation.
I suspect this Motu may in fact backfire by creating a view that to be loyal to catholic tradition you will be despised and scorned by the hierarchy. This creates the very practical schism it claims to lament. Ironically as a body trads probably are the only group that takes bishops seriously nowadays. That may change now too.
So now it's wait and see. And pray hard for the pope and bishops. And thank God for his generosity in the past and hopefully in the future.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 19, 2021 10:32:55 GMT
I'm not a Traditionalist, but I was dismayed to hear this news. I sympathize with the pain of my Traditionalist friends.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Jul 19, 2021 12:54:21 GMT
We hold fast, with all our heart and with all our soul, to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of the traditions necessary to preserve this faith, to Eternal Rome, Mistress of wisdom and truth.
We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.
All these reforms, indeed, have contributed and are still contributing to the destruction of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the abolition of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments, to the disappearance of religious life, to a naturalist and Teilhardian teaching in universities, seminaries and catechectics; a teaching derived from Liberalism and Protestantism, many times condemned by the solemn Magisterium of the Church.
No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or diminish our Catholic Faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church’s Magisterium for nineteen centuries.
“But though we,” says St. Paul, “or an angel from heaven preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (Gal. 1:8).
Is it not this that the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if we can discern a certain contradiction in his words and deeds, as well as in those of the dicasteries, well we choose what was always taught and we turn a deaf ear to the novelties destroying the Church.
It is impossible to modify profoundly the lex orandi without modifying the lex credendi. To the Novus Ordo Missae correspond a new catechism, a new priesthood, new seminaries, a charismatic Pentecostal Church—all things opposed to orthodoxy and the perennial teaching of the Church.
This Reformation, born of Liberalism and Modernism, is poisoned through and through; it derives from heresy and ends in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this Reformation or to submit to it in any way whatsoever.
The only attitude of faithfulness to the Church and Catholic doctrine, in view of our salvation, is a categorical refusal to accept this Reformation.
That is why, without any spirit of rebellion, bitterness or resentment, we pursue our work of forming priests, with the timeless Magisterium as our guide. We are persuaded that we can render no greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff and to posterity.
That is why we hold fast to all that has been believed and practiced in the faith, morals, liturgy, teaching of the catechism, formation of the priest and institution of the Church, by the Church of all time; to all these things as codified in those books which saw day before the Modernist influence of the Council. This we shall do until such time that the true light of Tradition dissipates the darkness obscuring the sky of Eternal Rome.
By doing this, with the grace of God and the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that of St. Joseph and St. Pius X, we are assured of remaining faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and to all the successors of Peter, and of being the fideles dispensatores mysteriorum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi in Spiritu Sancto. Amen.
November 21, 1974 Econe, Switzerland Archbishop Lefebvre.
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Post by hilary on Jul 19, 2021 18:49:38 GMT
The "ordinary" parish churches could do with an influx of traditionalists though. Is there any overlap ie people who are active in both types of parish and try to influence the priests or congregation eg with more Latin music, more reverence in church etc? It sounds like it's one or the other for people but could the Church not be moved in that direction by people coming back and teaching and sharing their love of the tradition with others? It's probably a lot more complicated than that but these people are obviously a loss to their local parish church and not just in terms of money obviously.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 19, 2021 19:33:43 GMT
The "ordinary" parish churches could do with an influx of traditionalists though. Is there any overlap ie people who are active in both types of parish and try to influence the priests or congregation eg with more Latin music, more reverence in church etc? It sounds like it's one or the other for people but could the Church not be moved in that direction by people coming back and teaching and sharing their love of the tradition with others? It's probably a lot more complicated than that but these people are obviously a loss to their local parish church and not just in terms of money obviously. I think the advice of Fr. Dwight Longenecker makes a lot of sense. dwightlongenecker.com/the-popes-moto-proprio-what-next/
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Post by cato on Jul 20, 2021 0:34:49 GMT
The "ordinary" parish churches could do with an influx of traditionalists though. Is there any overlap ie people who are active in both types of parish and try to influence the priests or congregation eg with more Latin music, more reverence in church etc? It sounds like it's one or the other for people but could the Church not be moved in that direction by people coming back and teaching and sharing their love of the tradition with others? It's probably a lot more complicated than that but these people are obviously a loss to their local parish church and not just in terms of money obviously. I think the advice of Fr. Dwight Longenecker makes a lot of sense. dwightlongenecker.com/the-popes-moto-proprio-what-next/Virtually no Catholic church in Ireland would do or allow this. A Conservative priest friend of mine said he would be slaughtered if he said the new mass in Latin let alone the old. Similarly with ad orientem mass even in English. This may change hopefully but most clergy and parishioners are of the opinion that things are now carved in granite. The only place where you would get this rather sensible compromise is in the Church Of Irelands High Church parish of St Bartholomew in Ballsbridge Dublin. I also hear they are doctrinally liberal.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 21, 2021 4:07:16 GMT
We hold fast, with all our heart and with all our soul, to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of the traditions necessary to preserve this faith, to Eternal Rome, Mistress of wisdom and truth. We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it. All these reforms, indeed, have contributed and are still contributing to the destruction of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the abolition of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments, to the disappearance of religious life, to a naturalist and Teilhardian teaching in universities, seminaries and catechectics; a teaching derived from Liberalism and Protestantism, many times condemned by the solemn Magisterium of the Church. No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or diminish our Catholic Faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church’s Magisterium for nineteen centuries. “But though we,” says St. Paul, “or an angel from heaven preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (Gal. 1:8). Is it not this that the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if we can discern a certain contradiction in his words and deeds, as well as in those of the dicasteries, well we choose what was always taught and we turn a deaf ear to the novelties destroying the Church. It is impossible to modify profoundly the lex orandi without modifying the lex credendi. To the Novus Ordo Missae correspond a new catechism, a new priesthood, new seminaries, a charismatic Pentecostal Church—all things opposed to orthodoxy and the perennial teaching of the Church. This Reformation, born of Liberalism and Modernism, is poisoned through and through; it derives from heresy and ends in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this Reformation or to submit to it in any way whatsoever. The only attitude of faithfulness to the Church and Catholic doctrine, in view of our salvation, is a categorical refusal to accept this Reformation. That is why, without any spirit of rebellion, bitterness or resentment, we pursue our work of forming priests, with the timeless Magisterium as our guide. We are persuaded that we can render no greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff and to posterity. That is why we hold fast to all that has been believed and practiced in the faith, morals, liturgy, teaching of the catechism, formation of the priest and institution of the Church, by the Church of all time; to all these things as codified in those books which saw day before the Modernist influence of the Council. This we shall do until such time that the true light of Tradition dissipates the darkness obscuring the sky of Eternal Rome. By doing this, with the grace of God and the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that of St. Joseph and St. Pius X, we are assured of remaining faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and to all the successors of Peter, and of being the fideles dispensatores mysteriorum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi in Spiritu Sancto. Amen. November 21, 1974 Econe, Switzerland Archbishop Lefebvre. I agree with the majority of what His Grace said....at the end of the day though, people should have the right to worship securely within their ordinary diocesan structures. Cheer on SSPX as we may, joining them is not a universal practicality- in the City/diocese I live in the Society has a tiny chapel- "St Papin's",my mother would call it- and usually one priest, with, I understand, newly-ordaineds stationed with him from time to time. Over 500 persons attend diocesan masses, mostly at the official chaplaincy(very much a "St Papin's" also- 5 masses are required on Sundays). The Society can't accommodate them, even without covid restrictions, which are always a possibility these days. Being fully in the spirit of Vatican II, we were at pains this morning to find St Laurence of Brindisi's mass in the altar missal, his feast being added only by John XXIII; it was interesting to find that secular-virgin St Praxedes had had a stand alone commemoration on this day before the addition of Brindisi's feast. The lesson for this lady was, rather than the usual chaste-bride passage from Paul for Virgins,the Apostle's more frank discussion about his own celibacy- still an enigmatic subject at the time- something that suited a virgin who never knew the security of a regular convent. I couldn't help thinking about the traditional mass/office congregations, now under the general Roman congregation for religious, and possibly, if the situation becomes untenable, worrying about whether they'll eventually be forced into a more secular consecration like the mysterious Praxedes.
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Post by cato on Jul 21, 2021 12:52:18 GMT
If you ever get to Rome the little ancient Basilica of St Praxedes is well worth a visit for its beautiful mosaics. Roman churches were spared by and large the reordering inflicted on so many catholic churches after Vatican ii. Ironically I think this may be due to the state owning all Italian churches save for the churches owned by the Vatican mentioned in the concordat with Mussolini.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Jul 21, 2021 13:09:17 GMT
Virtually no Catholic church in Ireland would do or allow this. A Conservative priest friend of mine said he would be slaughtered if he said the new mass in Latin let alone the old. Similarly with ad orientem mass even in English. This may change hopefully but most clergy and parishioners are of the opinion that things are now carved in granite. The only place where you would get this rather sensible compromise is in the Church Of Irelands High Church parish of St Bartholomew in Ballsbridge Dublin. I also hear they are doctrinally liberal. I completely agree that Fr. Dwight Longenecker is not living in reality for 99% of the parishes. People that believe that 10 or 20 refugees going to their local parish will make the NO Mass have incense, ad orientem, communion on the tongue, altar rails, male-only serves, etc do not know life in reality.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Jul 21, 2021 13:12:15 GMT
We hold fast, with all our heart and with all our soul, to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of the traditions necessary to preserve this faith, to Eternal Rome, Mistress of wisdom and truth. We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it. All these reforms, indeed, have contributed and are still contributing to the destruction of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the abolition of the Sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments, to the disappearance of religious life, to a naturalist and Teilhardian teaching in universities, seminaries and catechectics; a teaching derived from Liberalism and Protestantism, many times condemned by the solemn Magisterium of the Church. No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can force us to abandon or diminish our Catholic Faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church’s Magisterium for nineteen centuries. “But though we,” says St. Paul, “or an angel from heaven preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (Gal. 1:8). Is it not this that the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if we can discern a certain contradiction in his words and deeds, as well as in those of the dicasteries, well we choose what was always taught and we turn a deaf ear to the novelties destroying the Church. It is impossible to modify profoundly the lex orandi without modifying the lex credendi. To the Novus Ordo Missae correspond a new catechism, a new priesthood, new seminaries, a charismatic Pentecostal Church—all things opposed to orthodoxy and the perennial teaching of the Church. This Reformation, born of Liberalism and Modernism, is poisoned through and through; it derives from heresy and ends in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this Reformation or to submit to it in any way whatsoever. The only attitude of faithfulness to the Church and Catholic doctrine, in view of our salvation, is a categorical refusal to accept this Reformation. That is why, without any spirit of rebellion, bitterness or resentment, we pursue our work of forming priests, with the timeless Magisterium as our guide. We are persuaded that we can render no greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff and to posterity. That is why we hold fast to all that has been believed and practiced in the faith, morals, liturgy, teaching of the catechism, formation of the priest and institution of the Church, by the Church of all time; to all these things as codified in those books which saw day before the Modernist influence of the Council. This we shall do until such time that the true light of Tradition dissipates the darkness obscuring the sky of Eternal Rome. By doing this, with the grace of God and the help of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that of St. Joseph and St. Pius X, we are assured of remaining faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and to all the successors of Peter, and of being the fideles dispensatores mysteriorum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi in Spiritu Sancto. Amen. November 21, 1974 Econe, Switzerland Archbishop Lefebvre. I agree with the majority of what His Grace said....at the end of the day though, people should have the right to worship securely within their ordinary diocesan structures. Cheer on SSPX as we may, joining them is not a universal practicality- in the City/diocese I live in the Society has a tiny chapel- "St Papin's",my mother would call it- and usually one priest, with, I understand, newly-ordaineds stationed with him from time to time. Over 500 persons attend diocesan masses, mostly at the official chaplaincy(very much a "St Papin's" also- 5 masses are required on Sundays). The Society can't accommodate them, even without covid restrictions, which are always a possibility these days. Being fully in the spirit of Vatican II, we were at pains this morning to find St Laurence of Brindisi's mass in the altar missal, his feast being added only by John XXIII; it was interesting to find that secular-virgin St Praxedes had had a stand alone commemoration on this day before the addition of Brindisi's feast. The lesson for this lady was, rather than the usual chaste-bride passage from Paul for Virgins,the Apostle's more frank discussion about his own celibacy- still an enigmatic subject at the time- something that suited a virgin who never knew the security of a regular convent. I couldn't help thinking about the traditional mass/office congregations, now under the general Roman congregation for religious, and possibly, if the situation becomes untenable, worrying about whether they'll eventually be forced into a more secular consecration like the mysterious Praxedes. I agree people should! but they aren't allowed in reality. The SPPX may need to buy, rent or build new churches.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 21, 2021 20:35:12 GMT
One good thing about this controversy is that everybody from Fr. James Martin to Taylor Marshall is calling for charity, prayerfulness and loyalty to the Pope. No schism seems imminent.
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