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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 26, 2021 16:53:31 GMT
There was a long discussion on the Irish and race on the "Fall of Afghanistan" thread. We are trying to keep threads on-topic so I'm starting a new thread here.
I asked Antaine why he cared about whiteness and in response he repeated something I'd said about Ireland: that I care about Ireland because it's mine and because it is just as important as every other nation.
The reason I find it hard to apply this to the white race is because it's so vast and spread out. There are hundreds of millions of white people all over the world and I think just being the same colour is a superficial thing to have in common.
If you consider whiteness essential to Irishness, I would ask: why? Yes, the vast majority of Irish people have been white through history. But at one point the vast majority of Irish people had been pagan. And indeed there is a guy who is constantly commenting on The Burkean who considers Christianity a foreign, un-Irish religion.
I think it makes more sense to base Irishness on culture.
I think it's important to discuss these matters calmly and charitably.
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Post by cato on Sept 26, 2021 20:11:22 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly with those sentiments.
There has been a huge influx of non Irish in recent years unprecedented since the 17th century religious wars. Many of those are EU citizens who have an automatic legal right to work and live here, just as we have the reciprocal right to go and live in Greece or Finland. One of the reasons behind the housing crisis for example is that we have no control over our borders within the EU. No Irish government can predict or control how many EU nationals can come here. Our welfare rates are much superior to Eastern Europe and we do attract some limited welfare tourism.
We do seem to have a rather generous approach to non EU immigration and there are several NGOs advocating on their behalf. Direct provision will soon be abolished and asylum seekers have been promised a key in the door social housing. How this ties in with a severe housing crisis and equality is a debate we have not had to date.
Normally any call for debate is shut down quickly and denounced as racist.
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Post by cato on Sept 26, 2021 21:00:25 GMT
My previous post was more thoughts on the background to our current non debate on immigration and not race specifically. Still I think its relevant. Trying to give good example to you all.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 26, 2021 21:12:32 GMT
I absolutely agree that it's lamentable that all discussion on immigration is shut down relentlessly. I even think this is part of the reason a genuine racialist element is growing up on the Irish right. You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, if the cap fits wear it, etc.
I honestly believe that some on the Irish left are disappointed, in their hearts, that we have had no race riots here.
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Post by Séamus on Sept 27, 2021 4:49:44 GMT
There was a long discussion on the Irish and race on the "Fall of Afghanistan" thread....etc.... If you consider whiteness essential to Irishness, I would ask: why? Yes, the vast majority of Irish people have been white through history. But at one point the vast majority of Irish people had been pagan. And indeed there is a guy who is constantly commenting on The Burkean who considers Christianity a foreign, un-Irish religion. I think it makes more sense to base Irishness on culture....etc.... That can be dangerous also....I've been going through an unusual (marked down) book that deals with German occultism during the rise of Nazism- the concept of purging German-speaking lands of a Christianity (and Judaism and [bizarrely] masonry) that was considered oppressive and alien was a tremendous psychological support to their mad Aryanism. |
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Post by cato on Sept 27, 2021 12:21:32 GMT
]If you consider whiteness essential to Irishness, I would ask: why? Yes, the vast majority of Irish people have been white through history. But at one point the vast majority of Irish people had been pagan. And indeed there is a guy who is constantly commenting on The Burkean who considers Christianity a foreign, un-Irish religion.
I think it makes more sense to base Irishness on culture....etc.... [/quote]
That can be dangerous also....I've been going through an unusual (marked down) book that deals with German occultism during the rise of Nazism- the concept of purging German-speaking lands of a Christianity (and Judaism and [bizarrely] masonry) that was considered oppressive and alien was a tremendous psychological support to their mad Aryanism.[/quote]
We must do a thread on Masonry soon. I am reading a biography of Marcel Lebevebre at the moment and masonry and the fear of it was a big issue for the far(ish) European right. Franco seems to have been pretty obsessed by it and went to great lengths to persecute them. Any comments on the new masons thread!!
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Post by Antaine on Oct 7, 2021 17:30:50 GMT
Lovely stuff. Just a joke, I'm sure. Now if someone could explain the joke
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 8:56:48 GMT
Lovely stuff. Just a joke, I'm sure. Now if someone could explain the joke It's obnoxious. Yes, it's just a joke, but if you made a joke like that about any other race there would be outrage. Personally I would like a world where people can just laugh at jokes, unless they are in flagrantly bad taste, but there's certainly a double standard here. And the presenter is right-- how is being "mixed" in any way distinctive? We are all mixed now. When will the novelty wear off? We're going to have to find some other way to be distinctive. |
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 9:22:02 GMT
On the topic of White. It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! The whole idea of white and black is a foreign idea that has been imported from the USA and was created to distinct people during slavery. I am not white! I am Irish! That is is my race and the nation I belong to. I Married an Irish girl, but if I married a Polish lady she would not be Irish but in my opinion, our children would be part of the Polish and Irish families. My grandchildren would most likely be fully Irish if they married other Irish people. It's a bit complicated but families tend to be  The above man is not Irish and never can be! but his Children may be. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 9:39:41 GMT
On the topic of White. It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! The whole idea of white and black is a foreign idea that has been imported from the USA and was created to distinct people during slavery. I am not white! I am Irish! That is is my race and the nation I belong to. I Married an Irish girl, but if I married a Polish lady she would not be Irish but in my opinion, our children would be part of the Polish and Irish families. My grandchildren would most likely be fully Irish if they married other Irish people. It's a bit complicated but families tend to be The above man is not Irish and never can be! but his Children may be. I'm happy to consider anyone living on the island of Ireland Irish, although I think it comes with a duty to practice our culture (and help to revive it) and familarise oneself with our history. To some degree, anyway. I think this duty applies to the native-born and bred as well. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm married to an American woman. Although she is genetically overwhelmingly Irish, for whatever that's worth. Which was a surprise to her when she learned it since her name is Sicilian. Although actually I don't think that affects my views one way or another. I wouldn't say I'm not white-- I have white skin, or more accurately, pinkish skin. But the fact means nothing to me. |
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 10:21:15 GMT
On the topic of White. It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! The whole idea of white and black is a foreign idea that has been imported from the USA and was created to distinct people during slavery. I am not white! I am Irish! That is is my race and the nation I belong to. I Married an Irish girl, but if I married a Polish lady she would not be Irish but in my opinion, our children would be part of the Polish and Irish families. My grandchildren would most likely be fully Irish if they married other Irish people. It's a bit complicated but families tend to be The above man is not Irish and never can be! but his Children may be. I'm happy to consider anyone living on the island of Ireland Irish, although I think it comes with a duty to practice our culture (and help to revive it) and familarise oneself with our history. To some degree, anyway. I think this duty applies to the native-born and bred as well. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm married to an American woman. Although she is genetically overwhelmingly Irish, for whatever that's worth. Which was a surprise to her when she learned it since her name is Sicilian. Although actually I don't think that affects my views one way or another. I wouldn't say I'm not white-- I have white skin, or more accurately, pinkish skin. But the fact means nothing to me. I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 10:33:22 GMT
I'm happy to consider anyone living on the island of Ireland Irish, although I think it comes with a duty to practice our culture (and help to revive it) and familarise oneself with our history. To some degree, anyway. I think this duty applies to the native-born and bred as well. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm married to an American woman. Although she is genetically overwhelmingly Irish, for whatever that's worth. Which was a surprise to her when she learned it since her name is Sicilian. Although actually I don't think that affects my views one way or another. I wouldn't say I'm not white-- I have white skin, or more accurately, pinkish skin. But the fact means nothing to me. I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? She's a VERY patriotic American and I think she would primarily define herself as American. The whole Russian question you pose...these thought experiments seem a bit silly to be. I will go along with the silliness and say that if the Russians were speaking Irish, singing folk ballads, and having full Irish breakfasts they would be Irish. Such things don't happen, change happens gradually. I don't have any fears talking about this topic. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 10:36:02 GMT
I'm happy to consider anyone living on the island of Ireland Irish, although I think it comes with a duty to practice our culture (and help to revive it) and familarise oneself with our history. To some degree, anyway. I think this duty applies to the native-born and bred as well. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased because I'm married to an American woman. Although she is genetically overwhelmingly Irish, for whatever that's worth. Which was a surprise to her when she learned it since her name is Sicilian. Although actually I don't think that affects my views one way or another. I wouldn't say I'm not white-- I have white skin, or more accurately, pinkish skin. But the fact means nothing to me. I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? I actually don't think religion should play a part in culture, except to the extent that people should respect the religious heritage of a nation. Because they're different things. Nationality is something you are born into, or at least has to do with your life circumstances. Religion is something that you believe or don't believe. The only reason to practice a religion is because you believe it. It would be wrong to practice a religion for patriotic reasons, though you might respect it for patriotic reasons. |
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 10:52:15 GMT
On the topic of White. It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! The whole idea of white and black is a foreign idea that has been imported from the USA and was created to distinct people during slavery. I am not white! I am Irish! That is is my race and the nation I belong to. I Married an Irish girl, but if I married a Polish lady she would not be Irish but in my opinion, our children would be part of the Polish and Irish families. My grandchildren would most likely be fully Irish if they married other Irish people. It's a bit complicated but families tend to be The above man is not Irish and never can be! but his Children may be. But he can be Nigerian- Irish? In the same way as we became Irish American Irish Australian and then just plain Americans or Australians in most cases. |
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 10:59:16 GMT
I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? I actually don't think religion should play a part in culture, except to the extent that people should respect the religious heritage of a nation. Because they're different things. Nationality is something you are born into, or at least has to do with your life circumstances. Religion is something that you believe or don't believe. The only reason to practice a religion is because you believe it. It would be wrong to practice a religion for patriotic reasons, though you might respect it for patriotic reasons. "I don't think religion should play a part in culture, except to the extent that people should respect the religious heritage of a nation." Irish culture and the faith (Catholicism) are linked. You can't even say hello without mentioning it. A standard definition of culture can be defined as all the ways of life including arts, beliefs and institutions of a population that are passed down from generation to generation. What do you define Religion as? |
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