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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 11:02:41 GMT
On the topic of White. It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! It's a trap, people! The whole idea of white and black is a foreign idea that has been imported from the USA and was created to distinct people during slavery. I am not white! I am Irish! That is is my race and the nation I belong to. I Married an Irish girl, but if I married a Polish lady she would not be Irish but in my opinion, our children would be part of the Polish and Irish families. My grandchildren would most likely be fully Irish if they married other Irish people. It's a bit complicated but families tend to be The above man is not Irish and never can be! but his Children may be. But he can be Nigerian- Irish? In the same way as we became Irish American Irish Australian and then just plain Americans or Australians in most cases. The man seem to be Nigerian. If he marries (unlikely for many Nigerians that come to Ireland) a Irish lady and has children they will be Nigerian- Irish. NB: Some say you need multiple generation to become part of a nation, i think scripture talks about this
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 11:03:44 GMT
I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? She's a VERY patriotic American and I think she would primarily define herself as American. The whole Russian question you pose...these thought experiments seem a bit silly to be. I will go along with the silliness and say that if the Russians were speaking Irish, singing folk ballads, and having full Irish breakfasts they would be Irish. Such things don't happen, change happens gradually. I don't have any fears talking about this topic.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 11:04:38 GMT
But he can be Nigerian- Irish? In the same way as we became Irish American Irish Australian and then just plain Americans or Australians in most cases. The man seem to be Nigerian. If he marries (unlikely for many Nigerians that come to Ireland) a Irish lady and has children they will be Nigerian- Irish. NB: Some say you need multiple generation to become part of a nation, i think scripture talks about this I didn't see your question. Yes, I would say these Russians who emigrated en masse and began to practice Irish culture, while the Irish people who were here previously somehow disappeared, would be Irish. There would be a historical continuity. It seems a bizarre, unreal situation though.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 11:08:23 GMT
I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? She's a VERY patriotic American and I think she would primarily define herself as American. The whole Russian question you pose...these thought experiments seem a bit silly to be. I will go along with the silliness and say that if the Russians were speaking Irish, singing folk ballads, and having full Irish breakfasts they would be Irish. Such things don't happen, change happens gradually. I don't have any fears talking about this topic. I think she would be right to classify herself as an American. The Russian question is not silly as you put it. It has happened multiple times in the past and arguably is happening in locations across the world as we speak. What I'm saying is a people are moved or killed and replaced by Russian people. Them people adapt their culture to Ireland. Think of certain locations in turkey! Are these Russian that live in Ireland, Irish now? Why this matters is because Irish people or the nation of Ireland is not based on the land but the people. (obviously, land plays apart)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 11:27:18 GMT
She's a VERY patriotic American and I think she would primarily define herself as American. The whole Russian question you pose...these thought experiments seem a bit silly to be. I will go along with the silliness and say that if the Russians were speaking Irish, singing folk ballads, and having full Irish breakfasts they would be Irish. Such things don't happen, change happens gradually. I don't have any fears talking about this topic. I think she would be right to classify herself as an American. The Russian question is not silly as you put it. It has happened multiple times in the past and arguably is happening in locations across the world as we speak. What I'm saying is a people are moved or killed and replaced by Russian people. Them people adapt their culture to Ireland. Think of certain locations in turkey! Are these Russian that live in Ireland, Irish now? Why this matters is because Irish people or the nation of Ireland is not based on the land but the people. (obviously, land plays apart) That's a fair point. Funnily enough, Chesterton wrote on this very subject. Nationality is something very elusive. It's hard to pin down. I think it's a bit of this and a bit of the other, to be honest. Anyway, here's Chesterton, actually talking about the Irish, from his book Heretics: The truth of the whole matter is very simple. Nationality exists, and has nothing in the world to do with race. Nationality is a thing like a church or a secret society; it is a product of the human soul and will; it is a spiritual product. And there are men in the modern world who would think anything and do anything rather than admit that anything could be a spiritual product.
A nation, however, as it confronts the modern world, is a purely spiritual product. Sometimes it has been born in independence, like Scotland. Sometimes it has been born in dependence, in subjugation, like Ireland. Sometimes it is a large thing cohering out of many smaller things, like Italy. Sometimes it is a small thing breaking away from larger things, like Poland. But in each and every case its quality is purely spiritual, or, if you will, purely psychological. It is a moment when five men become a sixth man. Every one knows it who has ever founded a club. It is a moment when five places become one place. Every one must know it who has ever had to repel an invasion. Mr. Timothy Healy, the most serious intellect in the present House of Commons, summed up nationality to perfection when he simply called it something for which people will die, As he excellently said in reply to Lord Hugh Cecil, "No one, not even the noble lord, would die for the meridian of Greenwich." And that is the great tribute to its purely psychological character. It is idle to ask why Greenwich should not cohere in this spiritual manner while Athens or Sparta did. It is like asking why a man falls in love with one woman and not with another.
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 11:36:12 GMT
But he can be Nigerian- Irish? In the same way as we became Irish American Irish Australian and then just plain Americans or Australians in most cases.[/quote]The man seem to be Nigerian. If he marries (unlikely for many Nigerians that come to Ireland) a Irish lady and has children they will be Nigerian- Irish. NB: Some say you need multiple generation to become part of a nation, i think scripture talks about this[/quote]
From the context of the video clip he would appear to me to be identifying as Irish in some way.
Can you name some of those scripture passages? The Old Testament presumably is discussing Israel and the divine Covenant which isn't particularly applicable to other nations. I can't recall any texts discussing gentile nation building though there may be something in Proverbs or in the Wisdom literature texts?
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 11:38:25 GMT
I think she would be right to classify herself as an American. The Russian question is not silly as you put it. It has happened multiple times in the past and arguably is happening in locations across the world as we speak. What I'm saying is a people are moved or killed and replaced by Russian people. Them people adapt their culture to Ireland. Think of certain locations in turkey! Are these Russian that live in Ireland, Irish now? Why this matters is because Irish people or the nation of Ireland is not based on the land but the people. (obviously, land plays apart) That's a fair point. Funnily enough, Chesterton wrote on this very subject. Nationality is something very elusive. It's hard to pin down. I think it's a bit of this and a bit of the other, to be honest. Anyway, here's Chesterton, actually talking about the Irish, from his book Heretics: The truth of the whole matter is very simple. Nationality exists, and has nothing in the world to do with race. Nationality is a thing like a church or a secret society; it is a product of the human soul and will; it is a spiritual product. And there are men in the modern world who would think anything and do anything rather than admit that anything could be a spiritual product.
A nation, however, as it confronts the modern world, is a purely spiritual product. Sometimes it has been born in independence, like Scotland. Sometimes it has been born in dependence, in subjugation, like Ireland. Sometimes it is a large thing cohering out of many smaller things, like Italy. Sometimes it is a small thing breaking away from larger things, like Poland. But in each and every case its quality is purely spiritual, or, if you will, purely psychological. It is a moment when five men become a sixth man. Every one knows it who has ever founded a club. It is a moment when five places become one place. Every one must know it who has ever had to repel an invasion. Mr. Timothy Healy, the most serious intellect in the present House of Commons, summed up nationality to perfection when he simply called it something for which people will die, As he excellently said in reply to Lord Hugh Cecil, "No one, not even the noble lord, would die for the meridian of Greenwich." And that is the great tribute to its purely psychological character. It is idle to ask why Greenwich should not cohere in this spiritual manner while Athens or Sparta did. It is like asking why a man falls in love with I remember reading this and thinking isn't that a nice or poetic way of answering the question. but just because so one is talent at using the English language doesn't mean they are correct. I believe it is a family that can sometimes be divided or even added on to but still exist. On my Russian question is the answer still Irish?
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 12:22:26 GMT
But he can be Nigerian- Irish? In the same way as we became Irish American Irish Australian and then just plain Americans or Australians in most cases. The man seem to be Nigerian. If he marries (unlikely for many Nigerians that come to Ireland) a Irish lady and has children they will be Nigerian- Irish. NB: Some say you need multiple generation to become part of a nation, i think scripture talks about this[/quote] ___________________ From the context of the video clip he would appear to me to be identifying as Irish in some way.
Can you name some of those scripture passages? The Old Testament presumably is discussing Israel and the divine Covenant which isn't particularly applicable to other nations. I can't recall any texts discussing gentile nation building though there may be something in Proverbs or in the Wisdom literature texts?[/quote] [/font] _____________________________________ Just because you identify doesn't mean it's reality! The scriptural take comes from the old testament I think and is not one I'm pushing as I don't know much about it. A quick google search came up with www.openbible.info/topics/nations
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 12:41:17 GMT
] Just because you identify doesn't mean it's reality! The scriptural take comes from the old testament I think and is not one I'm pushing as I don't know much about it. A quick google search came up with www.openbible.info/topics/nations[/quote] Is the law real? Many of the new comers to Ireland are fully fledged legal Irish citizens. Most of those scriptural quotes proved my point about the OT being centred primarily on the Jewish nation. Other nations are of secondary interest generally to be conquered by Israel, or are used by God to punish Israel for infidelity to the divine covenant.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 13:01:56 GMT
] Just because you identify doesn't mean it's reality! The scriptural take comes from the old testament I think and is not one I'm pushing as I don't know much about it. A quick google search came up with www.openbible.info/topics/nations[/quote] Is the law real? Many of the new comers to Ireland are fully fledged legal Irish citizens. Most of those scriptural quotes proved my point about the OT being centred primarily on the Jewish nation. Other nations are of secondary interest generally to be conquered by Israel,or are used by God to punish Israel for infidelity to the divine covenant. ___________________ Once again I'm not making that argument from scripture just pointed it out as I think it would be worth discussing. At least it shows us nations exist and it's not as easy as identifying as a Jew to become part of the nation of Israel. I heard a man on the radio arguing the point very well, while the other secular panellists laughed at him. Of course, the rule of law is real on the Island of Ireland. You are getting the Nation of Ireland confused with the government of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Are you saying that if the government of a country giving passports out make the person receiving it part of the nation? 1 minute I'm Japanese, next I'm Irish. Its like magic. Sounds like a Globalist utopia.
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 13:16:13 GMT
___________________
Once again I'm not making that argument from scripture just pointed it out as I think it would be worth discussing. At least it shows us nations exist and it's not as easy as identifying as a Jew to become part of the nation of Israel. I heard a man on the radio arguing the point very well, while the other secular panellists laughed at him.
[brCato ]You become a Jew with great difficulty. They are notorious for being unfriendly to potential converts and conversion is a long slow process. It also involves circumcision which can be a real hurdle for male converts so it's not a simple matter of "identifying".
Judaism is pretty unique in the West too because it is linked to a Nation state . That state grants all Jews a right to return to Israel.
Of course, the rule of law is real on the Island of Ireland. You are getting the Nation of Ireland confused with the government of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Are you saying that if the government of a country giving passports out make the person receiving it part of the nation? Sounds like a Globalist utopia.[/quote]
Cato I live in Dublin and I generally speak about the Republic. If I was to qualify everything I said to cover both jurisdictions I would be here all day.
Legally having an Irish passport makes you Irish.I didn't make the law. I would favour a right of return law for the Irish diaspora. Most countries have a similar way of defining citizenship.
We have open borders within the EU , liberal immigration rules and very little deportation. Most Irish people are fine with that. That is de facto globalism. And no I don't like it.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 13:45:46 GMT
That's a fair point. Funnily enough, Chesterton wrote on this very subject. Nationality is something very elusive. It's hard to pin down. I think it's a bit of this and a bit of the other, to be honest. Anyway, here's Chesterton, actually talking about the Irish, from his book Heretics: The truth of the whole matter is very simple. Nationality exists, and has nothing in the world to do with race. Nationality is a thing like a church or a secret society; it is a product of the human soul and will; it is a spiritual product. And there are men in the modern world who would think anything and do anything rather than admit that anything could be a spiritual product.
A nation, however, as it confronts the modern world, is a purely spiritual product. Sometimes it has been born in independence, like Scotland. Sometimes it has been born in dependence, in subjugation, like Ireland. Sometimes it is a large thing cohering out of many smaller things, like Italy. Sometimes it is a small thing breaking away from larger things, like Poland. But in each and every case its quality is purely spiritual, or, if you will, purely psychological. It is a moment when five men become a sixth man. Every one knows it who has ever founded a club. It is a moment when five places become one place. Every one must know it who has ever had to repel an invasion. Mr. Timothy Healy, the most serious intellect in the present House of Commons, summed up nationality to perfection when he simply called it something for which people will die, As he excellently said in reply to Lord Hugh Cecil, "No one, not even the noble lord, would die for the meridian of Greenwich." And that is the great tribute to its purely psychological character. It is idle to ask why Greenwich should not cohere in this spiritual manner while Athens or Sparta did. It is like asking why a man falls in love with I remember reading this and thinking isn't that a nice or poetic way of answering the question. but just because so one is talent at using the English language doesn't mean they are correct. I believe it is a family that can sometimes be divided or even added on to but still exist. On my Russian question is the answer still Irish? Yes, it is. I think it's a fantasy scenario, though. If there was aggressive ethnic displacement of the type you describe in history then they would have no interest in adopting our culture.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 13:45:53 GMT
___________________ Once again I'm not making that argument from scripture just pointed it out as I think it would be worth discussing. At least it shows us nations exist and it's not as easy as identifying as a Jew to become part of the nation of Israel. I heard a man on the radio arguing the point very well, while the other secular panellists laughed at him. [brCato ]You become a Jew with great difficulty. They are notorious for being unfriendly to potential converts and conversion is a long slow process. It also involves circumcision which can be a real hurdle for male converts so it's not a simple matter of "identifying". Judaism is pretty unique in the West too because it is linked to a Nation state . That state grants all Jews a right to return to Israel. Of course, the rule of law is real on the Island of Ireland. You are getting the Nation of Ireland confused with the government of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Are you saying that if the government of a country giving passports out make the person receiving it part of the nation? Sounds like a Globalist utopia. Cato I live in Dublin and I generally speak about the Republic. If I was to qualify everything I said to cover both jurisdictions I would be here all day. Legally having an Irish passport makes you Irish. I didn't make the law. I would favour a right of return law for the Irish diaspora. Most countries have a similar way of defining citizenship. We have open borders within the EU , liberal immigration rules and very little deportation. Most Irish people are fine with that. That is de facto globalism. And no I don't like it. [/quote] ____________ Seán "Legally having an Irish passport makes you Irish" Legally I can change my name to Sinead and my gender. Doesn't make it true. We have open borders within the EU, liberal immigration rules and very little deportation. Most Irish people are fine with that. That is de facto globalism. And no I don't like it. [/quote] Don't play the globalist game. Maybe I'm picking you up wrong. If a government of a country gives out a passports, does that make the person receiving it part of the nation, people culture, ect?
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 13:48:50 GMT
I remember reading this and thinking isn't that a nice or poetic way of answering the question. but just because so one is talent at using the English language doesn't mean they are correct. I believe it is a family that can sometimes be divided or even added on to but still exist. On my Russian question is the answer still Irish? Yes, it is. I think it's a fantasy scenario, though. If there was aggressive ethnic displacement of the type you describe in history then they would have no interest in adopting our culture. What about the Armenian genocide for example?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 14:02:17 GMT
Yes, it is. I think it's a fantasy scenario, though. If there was aggressive ethnic displacement of the type you describe in history then they would have no interest in adopting our culture. What about the Armenian genocide for example? It doesn't seem like a similar analogy to what you were asking me about; Russians occupying Ireland, presumably deporting or killing all the current occupants, and choosing to adopt Irish culture.
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