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Post by cato on Nov 13, 2021 12:42:37 GMT
I presume Sean he was wondering who wrote the prayer or who was promoting the cause? I have no doubts the Archbishop was a zealous holy priest who brought many thousands to God in Africa as a missionary and in the second part of his career as the leader of Catholic Traditionalism. I do think current events do (sadly) vindicate his resistance to the madness that took over the church in the 1960s and that has accelerated enormously in recent times. Had he not set up the Society of St Pius X then the traditional rite of mass would have been totally eradicated if not in the 1970s then in 2021. The Latin Mass is now on death row in the Church thanks to Pope Francis. There is even speculation his advisors may announce a formal cut off date when Traddies will have to stop attending and go back to the Novus Ordo. |
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Post by Tomas on Nov 13, 2021 20:06:49 GMT
I presume Sean he was wondering who wrote the prayer or who was promoting the cause? now on death row in the Church thanks to Pope Francis. There is even speculation his advisors may announce a formal cut off date when Traddies will have to stop attending and go back to the Novus Ordo. That would be some heinous step to take. I cannot imagine any sane bishop in Rome going to such an extreme, however ecumenically-minded modernist he would be. |
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SSPX
Nov 13, 2021 21:30:36 GMT
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Post by cato on Nov 13, 2021 21:30:36 GMT
I presume Sean he was wondering who wrote the prayer or who was promoting the cause? now on death row in the Church thanks to Pope Francis. There is even speculation his advisors may announce a formal cut off date when Traddies will have to stop attending and go back to the Novus Ordo. That would be some heinous step to take. I cannot imagine any sane bishop in Rome going to such an extreme, however ecumenically-minded modernist he would be. I hope and pray this would not happen. However a year ago I would not have believed a pope would declare he wanted to see the rite of mass used for at least a millennium die out. This is a time of bitter trial to quote Evelyn Waugh who saw some of the horrors ahead. |
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Nov 13, 2021 21:55:17 GMT
Post by Tomas on Nov 13, 2021 21:55:17 GMT
That would be some heinous step to take. I cannot imagine any sane bishop in Rome going to such an extreme, however ecumenically-minded modernist he would be. I hope and pray this would not happen. However a year ago I would not have believed a pope would declare he wanted to see the rite of mass used for at least a millennium die out. This is a time of bitter trial to quote Evelyn Waugh who saw some of the horrors ahead. In the meanwhile some betting on another nauseous event in the unpredicted series (eerily in sync as far as timing goes). Many had reckoned Big Pharma would cross the line first but there is always other contenders. Even outside of rigged races! Maybe some among the usual suspects hauled some preparatory speed injections behind the scenes after all there?  www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WcrWkX1NGo |
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Nov 13, 2021 22:04:19 GMT
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 13, 2021 22:04:19 GMT
I presume Sean he was wondering who wrote the prayer or who was promoting the cause? now on death row in the Church thanks to Pope Francis. There is even speculation his advisors may announce a formal cut off date when Traddies will have to stop attending and go back to the Novus Ordo. That would be some heinous step to take. I cannot imagine any sane bishop in Rome going to such an extreme, however ecumenically-minded modernist he would be. Unfortunately I can see the executioner coming for the Latin Mass. Obviously it wont work and if it does its God's will. I personally am ready for war! |
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Nov 13, 2021 22:08:30 GMT
Post by Tomas on Nov 13, 2021 22:08:30 GMT
That would be some heinous step to take. I cannot imagine any sane bishop in Rome going to such an extreme, however ecumenically-minded modernist he would be. Unfortunately I can see the executioner coming for the Latin Mass. Obviously it wont work and if it does its God's will. I personally am ready for war! The Age of Forbearance. Or not. |
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Nov 14, 2021 1:20:28 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Nov 14, 2021 1:20:28 GMT
Who will canonize him? A lot of the Church's very revered persons are in a situation where an official sainthood will possibly never be declared,due either to some heretical beliefs(Origen), disobedience or perceived disobedience(Mary Ward), over-zealousness (Savonarola),or not complying with the Rome of the day (Bishop Delaney).....then again St Cardinal Newman's position with primacy of conscience is perceived as being anti-Infallibility, St Hildegard was under interdict at one stage,while St Hippolytus, favourite of Paul VI, was in heresy AND schism and one stage. |
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Nov 14, 2021 7:41:49 GMT
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Post by cato on Nov 14, 2021 7:41:49 GMT
Who will canonize him? A lot of the Church's very revered persons are in a situation where an official sainthood will possibly never be declared,due either to some heretical beliefs(Origen), disobedience or perceived disobedience(Mary Ward), over-zealousness (Savonarola),or not complying with the Rome of the day (Bishop Delaney).....then again St Cardinal Newman's position with primacy of conscience is perceived as being anti-Infallibility, St Hildegard was under interdict at one stage,while St Hippolytus, favourite of Paul VI, was in heresy AND schism and one stage. St Columba of Iona was excommunicated at one stage too by his fellow prelates although the details are disputed and blurred by his biographer Adomhnain. The mission of St Patrick was always under a bit of a cloud from his sponsoring (?) British Church who were very quick to criticise his rather unorthodox pastoral methods in Ireland. Neither men were ever formally canonised in a modern sense. Indeed many or most saints weren't formally canonised. Seamus makes a good point about awkward Holy people who have or had very little chance at being canonised by the Vatican but who are still loyal Christians and possibly saints in an informal sense. I recall in the early 1980s being told by a young priest Padre Pio would never be canonised as he represented the old church and wasn't a modern model of priesthood! |
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Post by Tomas on Nov 14, 2021 14:10:45 GMT
Who will canonize him? A lot of the Church's very revered persons are in a situation where an official sainthood will possibly never be declared,due either to some heretical beliefs(Origen), disobedience or perceived disobedience(Mary Ward), over-zealousness (Savonarola),or not complying with the Rome of the day (Bishop Delaney).....then again St Cardinal Newman's position with primacy of conscience is perceived as being anti-Infallibility, St Hildegard was under interdict at one stage,while St Hippolytus, favourite of Paul VI, was in heresy AND schism and one stage. St Columba of Iona was excommunicated at one stage too by his fellow prelates although the details are disputed and blurred by his biographer Adomhnain. The mission of St Patrick was always under a bit of a cloud from his sponsoring (?) British Church who were very quick to criticise his rather unorthodox pastoral methods in Ireland. Neither men were ever formally canonised in a modern sense. Indeed many or most saints weren't formally canonised. Seamus makes a good point about awkward Holy people who have or had very little chance at being canonised by the Vatican but who are still loyal Christians and possibly saints in an informal sense. I recall in the early 1980s being told by a young priest Padre Pio would never be canonised as he represented the old church and wasn't a modern model of priesthood! I have heard it said that Frank Duff doubted the stigmata of Padre Pio thus holding him to be dubious in some sense! Even among saints themselves there are disputes... |
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Post by cato on Nov 14, 2021 15:36:55 GMT
[quote I have heard it said that Frank Duff doubted the stigmata of Padre Pio thus holding him to be dubious in some sense! Even among saints themselves there are disputes...[/quote]
Tomas you might like the book by British medieval historian Robert Barlett 'Why can the dead do such great things' on the veneration of saints up until the Reformation. It has some good stories of disputes between orders and thefts of relics.
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Nov 17, 2021 19:43:48 GMT
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Post by cato on Nov 17, 2021 19:43:48 GMT
One of the strange things about pope Francis is his relatively positive attitude to the society of St Pius X. Indeed he is probably the most positive pope regarding formal relations with the church having given them formal canonical permission to hear confessions and marry couples, permission they hadn't possessed prior to this.
Ironically in Rome you can't get married , have your confession heard or get the last rites in the old rite from any one in full communion with the Pope. Neither can you attend the Easter ceremonies in the old rite from now on. But you can do all those things in the Society of St Pius X Church there!
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 18, 2021 10:02:16 GMT
One of the strange things about pope Francis is his relatively positive attitude to the society of St Pius X. Indeed he is probably the most positive pope regarding formal relations with the church having given them formal canonical permission to hear confessions and marry couples, permission they hadn't possessed prior to this. Ironically in Rome you can't get married , have your confession heard or get the last rites in the old rite from any one in full communion with the Pope. Neither can you attend the Easter ceremonies in the old rite from now on. But you can do all those things in the Society of St Pius X Church there! I have had heard a couple of reasons why Pope Francis has a relatively positive attitude towards the society of St Pius X and its faithful. 1) He had positive dealing with them when he was a Bishop in Buenos Aires and may see them as outcasts. Interesting quotes about SSPX cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/04/letters-show-franciss-outreach-traditionalists-long-history/2) Is that he wished to encourage most Traditionalists to start attending the SSPX sacraments and eventually excommunicate or put a letter out condemning them. 3) Is that the SSPX would be given the Old Rite to oversee and become a similar church to the Eastern Catholics Interested in what people think about these theories. |
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Nov 18, 2021 14:12:55 GMT
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Post by cato on Nov 18, 2021 14:12:55 GMT
One of the strange things about pope Francis is his relatively positive attitude to the society of St Pius X. Indeed he is probably the most positive pope regarding formal relations with the church having given them formal canonical permission to hear confessions and marry couples, permission they hadn't possessed prior to this. Ironically in Rome you can't get married , have your confession heard or get the last rites in the old rite from any one in full communion with the Pope. Neither can you attend the Easter ceremonies in the old rite from now on. But you can do all those things in the Society of St Pius X Church there! I have had heard a couple of reasons why Pope Francis has a relatively positive attitude towards the society of St Pius X and its faithful. 1) He had positive dealing with them when he was a Bishop in Buenos Aires and may see them as outcasts. Interesting quotes about SSPX cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/04/letters-show-franciss-outreach-traditionalists-long-history/2) Is that he wished to encourage most Traditionalists to start attending the SSPX sacraments and eventually excommunicate or put a letter out condemning them. 3) Is that the SSPX would be given the Old Rite to oversee and become a similar church to the Eastern Catholics Interested in what people think about these theories. I think the theory that Francis would force Trads out into the SSPX and then excommunicate them all is flawed. The modern church claims to be ecumenical. For the pope to deliberately provoke a schism and make it formal by excommunicating traditionalists would be unprecedented. It would be a moment of crisis proving Vatican ii is a new church which has abandoned Catholic tradition. As for the SSPX being like the Eastern rites... Well the societies in full canonical Union were de jure the guardians of those rites at the moment. As they have no bishops of their own ,they are pretty powerless to resist the latest papal persecution. Francis has also made it clear that the Liturgical reforms are irreversible and that he wishes to see an end to the old mass and for Traditionalists to return to regular attendance at their local parishes using the 1970 rites exclusively. That's called diversity. |
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Nov 18, 2021 14:31:46 GMT
Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 18, 2021 14:31:46 GMT
I have had heard a couple of reasons why Pope Francis has a relatively positive attitude towards the society of St Pius X and its faithful. 1) He had positive dealing with them when he was a Bishop in Buenos Aires and may see them as outcasts. Interesting quotes about SSPX cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/04/letters-show-franciss-outreach-traditionalists-long-history/2) Is that he wished to encourage most Traditionalists to start attending the SSPX sacraments and eventually excommunicate or put a letter out condemning them. 3) Is that the SSPX would be given the Old Rite to oversee and become a similar church to the Eastern Catholics Interested in what people think about these theories. I think the theory that Francis would force Trads out into the SSPX and then excommunicate them all is flawed. The modern church claims to be ecumenical. For the pope to deliberately provoke a schism and make it formal by excommunicating traditionalists would be unprecedented. It would be a moment of crisis proving Vatican ii is a new church which has abandoned Catholic tradition. As for the SSPX being like the Eastern rites... Well the societies in full canonical Union were de jure the guardians of those rites at the moment. As they have no bishops of their own ,they are pretty powerless to resist the latest papal persecution. Francis has also made it clear that the Liturgical reforms are irreversible and that he wishes to see an end to the old mass and for Traditionalists to return to regular attendance at their local parishes using the 1970 rites exclusively. That's called diversity. What is your analysis? Pope Francis: Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Trad: hand is trembling. Pope Francis:: You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! I just do things. The Bishops have plans. The Priests have plans. SSPX got plans. Y'know they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say that you and your Mass was nothing personal, you know I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and, uh, look where that got you. |
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Nov 18, 2021 14:56:10 GMT
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Post by cato on Nov 18, 2021 14:56:10 GMT
[/quote]What is your analysis?
Pope Francis: Do I really look like a guy with a plan?
Trad: hand is trembling.
Pope Francis:: You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! I just do things.
The Bishops have plans. The Priests have plans. SSPX got plans. Y'know they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say that you and your Mass was nothing personal, you know I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and, uh, look where that got you.[/quote]
Maybe my sense of humour is deserting me but were you making a serious point? I reread it three times and still can't understand.
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