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Post by Tomas on Oct 11, 2021 21:34:51 GMT
Writing from abroad the subject matter, relations to SSPX within the Catholic Church and also in wider apostolic sense, may perhaps differ from current Irish milieu. Will try these questions to begin with:
1. Tradition. The latest "hot" word in the online sphere... Can there be more than one Catholic Tradition? I doubt it, no, dismiss it altogether. Such a thought can only be superficial. There is only one Faith, one treasure. Then naturally countless expressions. But all must be steeped in the real source. Or is it possible to polarise two different traditions "splitting" the Church? If you have any thought in either direction please address this.
2. Schism or simply irregular. What are your apprehension of their formal status? When and where did that change, if it ever did, in the years coming after the 1988 decision to bring new Bishops? How do you find in short how they did this, without approval from the Holy Father, in what Msgr. Lefebvre refered to as Operation Survival, to remain faithful to the holy doctrine of the Church, the doctrine entirely whole until the 1960s break or aggiornimento?
3. Bishop Williamson and other group under SSPX umbrella. Do you see specific problems with varied views from their quarters? Do you find Bishop Williamson's private view on the Holocaust gas chambers as horrific, or only historically wrong? Does that make him persona non grata? (The TV documentary, scheduled to coincide with H.H. Benedict XVI's lift of the severe discipline towards SSPX at the time, was made by a Swedish TV team...)
4. Using odd churches for Mass. What about SSPX being allowed, or not being allowed, to celebrate Mass in ordinary circumstances now? Is it right or wrong they must be controlled? Are they suspect? Why?
5. Role today. Do you think their position is stronger now, or simply the same as always up until now, when some more of their stance has been recognised, in hindsight, as relevant (or least relevant for serious disputations) in the current situation where doctrines are perceived as being put at play?
Anything related to their general status and spirituality can well be added.
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SSPX
Oct 12, 2021 13:36:01 GMT
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Post by cato on Oct 12, 2021 13:36:01 GMT
The biography of Archbishop Lefebvre by Bishop De Mallerais is well worth a read. De Mallerais was one of the 4 bishops ordained by Lefebvre but his book seems to me to be a fair account of the events albeit from a very sympathetic pen.
I finished the book recently and it seems clear that without Lefebvre there would be no traditional Latin mass movement today. On the negative side his links with the French far right are ignored. There are a few passing sympathetic remarks about the regime of Marshal Petain (an agnostic) and a couple of critical remarks about General De Gaulle. His rejection of religious liberty also seems misguided. Christians today are the victims of state oppression throughout the world. The catholic state has gone the way of the Catholic monarchs.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 13, 2021 10:22:46 GMT
The biography of Archbishop Lefebvre by Bishop De Mallerais is well worth a read. De Mallerais was one of the 4 bishops ordained by Lefebvre but his book seems to me to be a fair account of the events albeit from a very sympathetic pen. I finished the book recently and it seems clear that without Lefebvre there would be no traditional Latin mass movement today. On the negative side his links with the French far right are ignored. There are a few passing sympathetic remarks about the regime of Marshal Petain (an agnostic) and a couple of critical remarks about General De Gaulle. His rejection of religious liberty also seems misguided. Christians today are the victims of state oppression throughout the world. The catholic state has gone the way of the Catholic monarchs. It´s probably "the one" biography written. Haven´t read it myself due to lack of time with so many other good books on the pile. Religious liberty was certainly a point where he had to go against the stream. Supposing it was the Liberal agenda that brings it, along with the importance of True Religion in the widest sense, that ought to have given massive impact and made him firm on that matter. Today when everything appears to be streamlined and everyone is applying the same talk I can´t help to admire someone who takes a serious concern in a question like that which, at the very least, must be alllowed free to be addressed in the tradition of clerical intellectual disputations or dialogues. The broad way is not always as gentle as it is prone to be portrayed by its advocates. |
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SSPX
Oct 13, 2021 12:18:06 GMT
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Post by cato on Oct 13, 2021 12:18:06 GMT
The liberal French Theologian Yves Congar wrote a book responding to Levebvres claims that Vatican ii was a break with catholic tradition but I have been unable to get a copy.
Congar while generally unsympathetic to the traditionalist case recognised it was a serious theological point of view ignored by most other theologians who claimed there were no discontinuities.
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Post by assisi on Oct 13, 2021 16:45:35 GMT
The liberal French Theologian Yves Congar wrote a book responding to Levebvres claims that Vatican ii was a break with catholic tradition but I have been unable to get a copy. Congar while generally unsympathetic to the traditionalist case recognised it was a serious theological point of view ignored by most other theologians who claimed there were no discontinuities. The majority of French and German Catholic theologians (and thinkers in general from these countries) have been very poor over the last few centuries. Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, Foucault, Freud (Austrian German), Frankfurt School have been responsible for a large chunk of the confusion we are now experiencing. What is it with these 2 self destructive countries? |
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Post by Tomas on Oct 13, 2021 20:55:51 GMT
The liberal French Theologian Yves Congar wrote a book responding to Levebvres claims that Vatican ii was a break with catholic tradition but I have been unable to get a copy. Congar while generally unsympathetic to the traditionalist case recognised it was a serious theological point of view ignored by most other theologians who claimed there were no discontinuities. The majority of French and German Catholic theologians (and thinkers in general from these countries) have been very poor over the last few centuries. Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, Foucault, Freud (Austrian German), Frankfurt School have been responsible for a large chunk of the confusion we are now experiencing. What is it with these 2 self destructive countries? It is mostly the plain non-religious and often anti-religious men that gets all attention. Could well be as simple as "the only net result possible" through the secular states' orchestration of education to fit the modern enlightenment en masse, deliberately ignoring the brighter countercultural genius and Catholic tradition most of all. |
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Post by Stephen on Oct 14, 2021 12:52:45 GMT
Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock:
May God console you! ...What saddens you ...is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises-but you have the apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in this struggle-the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?
True, the premises are good when the apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...You are the ones who are happy: you who remain within the church by your faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis.
No one, ever, will prevail against your faith, beloved brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.
Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray.
Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.
This could have been written today...
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SSPX
Oct 14, 2021 14:41:27 GMT
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Post by cato on Oct 14, 2021 14:41:27 GMT
Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock: May God console you! ...What saddens you ...is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises-but you have the apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in this struggle-the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith? True, the premises are good when the apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...You are the ones who are happy: you who remain within the church by your faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your faith, beloved brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ. This could have been written today...
Is that from a book Stephen? I have been looking for a good collection of writings by St Athanasius. |
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SSPX
Oct 14, 2021 14:57:52 GMT
Post by Stephen on Oct 14, 2021 14:57:52 GMT
Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock: May God console you! ...What saddens you ...is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises-but you have the apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in this struggle-the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith? True, the premises are good when the apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...You are the ones who are happy: you who remain within the church by your faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your faith, beloved brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day. Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ. This could have been written today...
Is that from a book Stephen? I have been looking for a good collection of writings by St Athanasius. I think it is in this one. I found it reading a blog and they quoted this. www.amazon.co.uk/Sacred-Writings-Saint-Athanasius/dp/3849676811 |
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SSPX
Oct 14, 2021 18:24:22 GMT
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Post by cato on Oct 14, 2021 18:24:22 GMT
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SSPX
Oct 15, 2021 8:20:14 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Oct 15, 2021 8:20:14 GMT
The liberal French Theologian Yves Congar wrote a book responding to Levebvres claims that Vatican ii was a break with catholic tradition but I have been unable to get a copy. Congar while generally unsympathetic to the traditionalist case recognised it was a serious theological point of view ignored by most other theologians who claimed there were no discontinuities. A headline from AMERICA magazine turned up on my phone today: "Pope Francis: Evangelization Becomes Dangerous When The Church Imposes Own Culture On Diverse World" I discovered later in the week that Monday had been the feast of John XXIII and that the Office of Readings had been taken from an opening address to the Council: "The Catholic church,as she raises the truth of religion through the Ecumenical Council,wishes to show herself a most loving mother of all, benign, patient and moved with mercy and goodness toward the children seperated from Her" Ahemmm...... |
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Post by cato on Oct 15, 2021 11:11:18 GMT
The liberal French Theologian Yves Congar wrote a book responding to Levebvres claims that Vatican ii was a break with catholic tradition but I have been unable to get a copy. Congar while generally unsympathetic to the traditionalist case recognised it was a serious theological point of view ignored by most other theologians who claimed there were no discontinuities. A headline from AMERICA magazine turned up on my phone today: "Pope Francis: Evangelization Becomes Dangerous When The Church Imposes Own Culture On Diverse World" I discovered later in the week that Monday had been the feast of John XXIII and that the Office of Readings had been taken from an opening address to the Council: "The Catholic church,as she raises the truth of religion through the Ecumenical Council,wishes to show herself a most loving mother of all, benign, patient and moved with mercy and goodness goodness toward the children seperated from Her" Ahemmm...... Seamus I am sure you realise that the actual words of Vatican ii or historical truth doesn't count. Its how the experts interpret them and enforce them for the benefit of we the the little people that matters. Patronising dishonest scheming clericalism is at the heart of so much of the crisis in Catholicism. |
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SSPX
Nov 12, 2021 11:57:31 GMT
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 12, 2021 11:57:31 GMT
Prayer for the Canonization of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre  |
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SSPX
Nov 12, 2021 12:17:12 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Nov 12, 2021 12:17:12 GMT
Prayer for the Canonization of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre By whom? |
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SSPX
Nov 13, 2021 8:48:34 GMT
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 13, 2021 8:48:34 GMT
Prayer for the Canonization of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre By whom? What is your question? |
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