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Post by cato on Jul 26, 2023 12:20:34 GMT
[quote Anti-Semitism is prejudice and hostility against the Jewish people. I wouldn't call it racism myself.[/quote]
Judaism is complicated as it has a biological family element via the Jewish mother. Historically Jews haven't prosleytised and are reluctant to accept converts. A gentile can become Jewish but its difficult.
The Jewish race is linked intrinsically to the Jewish faith which has a strong belief in the return of the Jews to Palestine. The language of race isn't something I am fond of but thanks to BLM and our leftist friends racialism as opposed to racism is respectable again That's a monstrous mistake which we may have cause to bitterly regret.
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Post by Antaine on Jul 27, 2023 21:27:27 GMT
Israel doesn't need to oppress its own citizens, as it's too busy oppressing "Palestinians". I don't tale a black-and-white view of that situation, but it is what it is. Concerning Jewish/Israeli influence, caricatures of wicked rabbis in dark towers aside, there is obviously a strong Israeli lobby influence in the US. Why else would so many US politicians have such a bizarre loyalty to "America's greatest ally", despite incidents such as the USS Liberty, Israel spying on the US, Israeli intelligence shared with the CIA being considered worse than useless as it's often outright lies, etc? Just to name a few. Also, since you mentioned Iran and Syria, I believe it is the Israeli lobby in the US that seems to be the most eager to take an aggressive stance towards these countries. In fact, you may be able to point at Israel for a lot of these farcical Middle Eastern wars. The details escape me, but last I checked, it was Israeli "intelligence" that spread the lies leading to the "War on Terrorism". Certainly destabilised ME countries wouldn't really benefit anyone aside from a rival ME country.
Concerning Holocaust denial, this isn't exactly helped when you are told the event is beyond question, to the point people should be punished by anything from public shaming to losing your job, or even being arrested - only to have so many "facts" about the Holocaust be uncovered as outright lies, which are then rather quietly swept under the rug. Examples - killer masturbation machines, killer rollercoasters, electric floors, Jews being turned into lampshades and their greasy body fat being turned into soap - which, even as a teenager, I thought was one of the stupidest things I had ever heard. And that's to say nothing of the several "survivors" who had been exposed as utter frauds. - Then you see how many Jews are quick to use the Holocaust as a bludgeon and shield to get themselves out of trouble, and it's not really surprising people find the whole thing suspicious. For e.g., a Jew who might write an article talking about the "evils of whiteness", and how good it is that white demographics are on the decline, may then, when criticised, decry the anti-Semitism of the situation, along with the danger said anti-Semitism now puts him in. The cry of anti-Semitism, of course, is a subconscious call back to what we all think of when we hear the words anti-Semitism - Hitler, Nazism, and the Holocaust. The irony of this situation, of course, is that the Jew writing an article celebrating the disappearance of an entire demographic, will then shield behind the horror of his own demographic being, supposedly, put in peril. - And whatever you think of the Holocaust, it is nothing short of bizarre the pedestal this event seems to be put on, especially compared to others. Recently there was some sort of mural put up in the GPO in memory of the Holocaust, but it was supposed to symbolise the struggles of refugees amid anti-migrant rhetoric. What refugees and the Holocaust have in common? I'm not sure. One is about keeping people out, the other about shipping people somewhere against their will. Even if you speak about the Holocaust in a way considered tasteless by Jews, you are subjected to a humiliation ritual where you have to visit a Holocaust memorial museum, followed by a public apology, and perhaps a handsome donation to the ADL, which can only be described as an anti-White, pro-Jew organisation. An example of what I mentioned, American politician Marjorie Taylor Greene. To me, as an Irish man, I find curious that the legacy of the Holocaust is utter solemnity with border-line life ruination for anyone who disagrees, where as the legacy of something like the famine is jokes about a bunch of stupid micks and their potatoes.
The Holocaust has certainly shaped the modern world in how it looks at itself - at least as far as White people are concerned. Germany to this day is still filled with guilt, or in some cases outright self-hatred, to the point they are timid in dealing with something as serious as women and children being gang=raped by migrants. There have been German girls sexually harassed by migrant men who said they didn't talk about it because of the "cultural ramifications." The rest of the White world is to believe we cannot have a strong nationalist government because "We know what happened last time." Anyone who has in any way dipped their toes in politics knows that nearly everything, at some point at least, will be measured against Hitler and Nazi Germany - and inevitably, the Holocaust. When discussing atrocities of the past, there is no event that will incur more revulsion and declarations of disgust than the Holocaust, despite atrocities of a greater scale and cruelty having occurred before and since. My point is, the Holocaust is clearly being used as a framework for what is considered acceptable rhetoric, in all of the Western world, not just Germany. If, hypothetically, the Holocaust were exposed as grossly exaggerated or even outright lies, it is hard to imagine how the face of Western politics, among other things, would change. Such a world is unfathomable.
In regards to the terms Jews, since we speak of Jewish influence, etc, let's establish something. Are Jews a hive-mind? No, of course not. The most obvious example of this can be seen in the fact that some Jews are Zionists, while others are liberal-globalist types. From there, you can break it down further. Some Jews are conservative and support traditional values, others are liberal, others are "progressive" and support degeneracy. As with any group, I'm sure you can break it down a hundred more ways. However, to suggest that Jews that don't work towards Jewish interests in childishly naïve. All groups - although perhaps not so much White people now, for some reason? - push for their own interests. Blacks, Asians, Easter Europeans, etc, religious groups of various kinds. It's natural for people to fight for their own group. However, it is interesting to note that suggesting Jews do this is the legal definition of anti-Semitism. And, unfortunately, even among conservative or "free speech absolutist" Jews, we see this hypocrisy. Ben Shapiro, for example, does not see White demographics as important, but is simultaneously a hardcore Zionist who believes in a homeland for the Jews. I forget the man's name, but one of the men behind the Triggernometry Youtube channel, whom I believe consider themselves free speech absolutists, once bitterly interrogated one of their guests, as she had given platform to a supposed anti-Semite, even though she did not necessarily agree with this person's beliefs. She was lectured about "taking responsibility", which is a very curious thing to say to someone as a free speech absolutist. This is a hypocrisy often seen with Conservative types, who will happily debate with a Communist, Black Supremacist, Antifa-pedophile, etc, but the idea of debating with a White Supremacist or anti-Semite - actual or slandered - is somehow too beyond the Pale.
The topic of Jews and anti-Semitism is a broad topic, so naturally my post went off in several directions, no doubt with loose ends. These are just some initial thoughts about it, and apologies if this has derailed the original point of the thread.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2023 21:51:46 GMT
Lots of good points, Antaine. I'd never heard some of the details you mention about Israel.
Like yourself I don't believe the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is straightforward, though my sympathies are definitely more with Israel.
And I completely agree that Israel and the Jews should be no exception to free speech.
I can't agree with you about the comparison with Jewishness and whiteness. Jewishness is based in a national history, distinct languages, and a common religion. Whiteness is just a skin colour.
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Post by cato on Jul 28, 2023 10:09:16 GMT
Would all these resolutions against Israel have been brought because previous ones have been disregarded? Maybe Israel doesn't need to be concerned about these resolutions. They have a strong ally in the US with a veto on Security Council resolutions. The Times of Israel article contains a link to an article about a UN Commission of Inquiry investigating human rights abuses in Israel/Palestine and one of the members spoke about efforts to undermine the work of the Commission, especially on social media. "Miloon Kothari, one of three members of a UN Commission of Inquiry (COI) investigating rights abuses in Israel and the Palestinian territories, triggered outrage after the interview with online publication Mondoweiss, which came out on July 25.
Asked about member states’ criticisms of the commission, Kothari pointed to wider efforts to undermine the investigation.
“We are very disheartened by the social media that is controlled largely by, whether it is the Jewish lobby or it is specific NGOs, a lot of money is being thrown into trying to discredit us,” he said in the interview".
He had to make a grovelling apology and the Israeli Foreign Ministry called for the Commission to be disbanded and the member to resign. USA Facts website says that the US approved over $3.8 bn in foreign assistance to Israel in 2019. Its a bit silly for a country with allegedly so much power and secret influence to isolate itself so much that it only has a handful of allies internationally even if one has a UN veto. 1950s Israel had a larger and more sympathetic global following particularly in Africa and among left wing circles . America was quite stand offish towards Israel if we think of the Suez debacle and was very reluctantly supportive of Israel in her wars of 1967 1973 and 1983 .
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Post by cato on Jul 28, 2023 10:20:41 GMT
Israel doesn't need to oppress its own citizens, as it's too busy oppressing "Palestinians". I don't tale a black-and-white view of that situation, but it is what it is. Concerning Jewish/Israeli influence, caricatures of wicked rabbis in dark towers aside, there is obviously a strong Israeli lobby influence in the US. Why else would so many US politicians have such a bizarre loyalty to "America's greatest ally", despite incidents such as the USS Liberty, Israel spying on the US, Israeli intelligence shared with the CIA being considered worse than useless as it's often outright lies, etc? Just to name a few. Also, since you mentioned Iran and Syria, I believe it is the Israeli lobby in the US that seems to be the most eager to take an aggressive stance towards these countries. In fact, you may be able to point at Israel for a lot of these farcical Middle Eastern wars. The details escape me, but last I checked, it was Israeli "intelligence" that spread the lies leading to the "War on Terrorism". Certainly destabilised ME countries wouldn't really benefit anyone aside from a rival ME country. Concerning Holocaust denial, this isn't exactly helped when you are told the event is beyond question, to the point people should be punished by anything from public shaming to losing your job, or even being arrested - only to have so many "facts" about the Holocaust be uncovered as outright lies, which are then rather quietly swept under the rug. Examples - killer masturbation machines, killer rollercoasters, electric floors, Jews being turned into lampshades and their greasy body fat being turned into soap - which, even as a teenager, I thought was one of the stupidest things I had ever heard. And that's to say nothing of the several "survivors" who had been exposed as utter frauds. - Then you see how many Jews are quick to use the Holocaust as a bludgeon and shield to get themselves out of trouble, and it's not really surprising people find the whole thing suspicious. For e.g., a Jew who might write an article talking about the "evils of whiteness", and how good it is that white demographics are on the decline, may then, when criticised, decry the anti-Semitism of the situation, along with the danger said anti-Semitism now puts him in. The cry of anti-Semitism, of course, is a subconscious call back to what we all think of when we hear the words anti-Semitism - Hitler, Nazism, and the Holocaust. The irony of this situation, of course, is that the Jew writing an article celebrating the disappearance of an entire demographic, will then shield behind the horror of his own demographic being, supposedly, put in peril. - And whatever you think of the Holocaust, it is nothing short of bizarre the pedestal this event seems to be put on, especially compared to others. Recently there was some sort of mural put up in the GPO in memory of the Holocaust, but it was supposed to symbolise the struggles of refugees amid anti-migrant rhetoric. What refugees and the Holocaust have in common? I'm not sure. One is about keeping people out, the other about shipping people somewhere against their will. Even if you speak about the Holocaust in a way considered tasteless by Jews, you are subjected to a humiliation ritual where you have to visit a Holocaust memorial museum, followed by a public apology, and perhaps a handsome donation to the ADL, which can only be described as an anti-White, pro-Jew organisation. An example of what I mentioned, American politician Marjorie Taylor Greene. To me, as an Irish man, I find curious that the legacy of the Holocaust is utter solemnity with border-line life ruination for anyone who disagrees, where as the legacy of something like the famine is jokes about a bunch of stupid micks and their potatoes. The Holocaust has certainly shaped the modern world in how it looks at itself - at least as far as White people are concerned. Germany to this day is still filled with guilt, or in some cases outright self-hatred, to the point they are timid in dealing with something as serious as women and children being gang=raped by migrants. There have been German girls sexually harassed by migrant men who said they didn't talk about it because of the "cultural ramifications." The rest of the White world is to believe we cannot have a strong nationalist government because "We know what happened last time." Anyone who has in any way dipped their toes in politics knows that nearly everything, at some point at least, will be measured against Hitler and Nazi Germany - and inevitably, the Holocaust. When discussing atrocities of the past, there is no event that will incur more revulsion and declarations of disgust than the Holocaust, despite atrocities of a greater scale and cruelty having occurred before and since. My point is, the Holocaust is clearly being used as a framework for what is considered acceptable rhetoric, in all of the Western world, not just Germany. If, hypothetically, the Holocaust were exposed as grossly exaggerated or even outright lies, it is hard to imagine how the face of Western politics, among other things, would change. Such a world is unfathomable. In regards to the terms Jews, since we speak of Jewish influence, etc, let's establish something. Are Jews a hive-mind? No, of course not. The most obvious example of this can be seen in the fact that some Jews are Zionists, while others are liberal-globalist types. From there, you can break it down further. Some Jews are conservative and support traditional values, others are liberal, others are "progressive" and support degeneracy. As with any group, I'm sure you can break it down a hundred more ways. However, to suggest that Jews that don't work towards Jewish interests in childishly naïve. All groups - although perhaps not so much White people now, for some reason? - push for their own interests. Blacks, Asians, Easter Europeans, etc, religious groups of various kinds. It's natural for people to fight for their own group. However, it is interesting to note that suggesting Jews do this is the legal definition of anti-Semitism. And, unfortunately, even among conservative or "free speech absolutist" Jews, we see this hypocrisy. Ben Shapiro, for example, does not see White demographics as important, but is simultaneously a hardcore Zionist who believes in a homeland for the Jews. I forget the man's name, but one of the men behind the Triggernometry Youtube channel, whom I believe consider themselves free speech absolutists, once bitterly interrogated one of their guests, as she had given platform to a supposed anti-Semite, even though she did not necessarily agree with this person's beliefs. She was lectured about "taking responsibility", which is a very curious thing to say to someone as a free speech absolutist. This is a hypocrisy often seen with Conservative types, who will happily debate with a Communist, Black Supremacist, Antifa-pedophile, etc, but the idea of debating with a White Supremacist or anti-Semite - actual or slandered - is somehow too beyond the Pale. The topic of Jews and anti-Semitism is a broad topic, so naturally my post went off in several directions, no doubt with loose ends. These are just some initial thoughts about it, and apologies if this has derailed the original point of the thread. Antaine that rant is rather distasteful and filled with numerous half truths and allegations which seems to be a tactic of some on social media. This obsession with Jews/Israel/Zionist often operates in a bizarre vacuum where inter Islamic disputes Shia versus Shite and Persian versus Arab almost never get mentioned when it comes to explaining the Middle East. One question . You claim there are worse atrocities than the holocaust before the Extermination attempt and subsequent. Pray elaborate.
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Post by Antaine on Aug 1, 2023 19:17:02 GMT
Maosheachlann, We can break the term White down into different groups if you wish. I'm simply using it as an umbrella term to describe a greater disdain towards people with white skin. White in this context isn't just a skin colour, but represents the shared histories of people and experiences of people. After all, most of the slander used against white people today is based on historical grievances - though I doubt the sincerity of these grievances myself, at least to the extent they are pushed. With that in mind, I don't see how Jews would get a pass as such a distinct group, whereas individual white groups wouldn't. Also, since we are talking about Jews and Whites, I would like to note that at one point I wouldn't have even made such a distinction. There was a time when I thought of Jews as just another group of white people like Anglos, Gaels, Meds, etc. It seems to be, from my experience, Jews who do not care for this comparison.
Cato, I find it distasteful that you would casually brush off my post as a rant. Perhaps more so because you didn't even bother to elaborate. If you feel I have made claims that are lies and half-truths, I am open to hearing your critique and corrections. I do not pretend to know what I don't know. To suggest that acknowledging Jewish influence amounts to an "obsession" is disingenuous, as the world is obviously not such a black and white place. Yes, I think people with at least some understanding appreciate that the Middle East isn't united bar Israel. If it were, Israel most likely wouldn't exist. However, it is a fact that many large donors in US politics are Zionist Jews. It's also true that a lot of intelligence the US has comes from Israel. And remember, while I'm sure the Muslim countries of the ME want to have influence in the US too, it is Israel which holds the honour of being "America's greatest ally."
In terms of worse atrocities, you have something like Genghis Khan's empire, most notably the massacre of Afghanistan. Perhaps that's a bit too far back. Mao Zedong's China is a modern example in terms of numbers, and in regards to cruelty I would say the atrocities of the Japanese army, with how they treated POWs and what they did in China. However, perhaps this all comes down to one's beliefs on the numbers. Personally, I find it unrealistic that Germany, in the 1940s, over the space of about 5 years, and on the verge of losing a war, somehow took the time and man-power to systematically execute and then cremate millions of bodies; meanwhile, Italy, 2020, using the full force of their military, somehow struggles to keep up with cremating a few thousands bodies. And keep in mind, 6 million - some are now trying to push it to 7 million, and higher - is only the Jewish victims, with another estimated 5 million for non-Jewish victims. The fact that certain other details about the Holocaust have been proven false, I fail to see how inflating the numbers would somehow be beyond the realms of possibility? For e.g., I once heard a story about how an American soldier was trampled to death by Jewish prisoners in one camp when it was liberated, because they were so desperate to get to the food being delivered to them. I wonder, how could someone, even a large group of people, so malnourished that they couldn't possibly have the strength, nor the energy to build up momentum, not only knock down a perfectly healthy soldier, but then somehow trample him to death with no resistance? To me, it sounds like a tale. I will leave it there for now.
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Post by cato on Aug 1, 2023 20:04:05 GMT
Antaine claims
Personally, I find it unrealistic that Germany, in the 1940s, over the space of about 5 years, and on the verge of losing a war, somehow took the time and man-power to systematically execute and then cremate millions of bodies; meanwhile, Italy, 2020, using the full force of their military, somehow struggles to keep up with cremating a few thousands bodies. And keep in mind, 6 million - some are now trying to push it to 7 million, and higher - is only the Jewish victims, with another estimated 5 million for non-Jewish victims. The fact that certain other details about the Holocaust have been proven false,
I fail to see how inflating the numbers would somehow be beyon To me, it sounds like a tale. I will leave it there for now.[/quote]
Antaine with all due respect I didn't casually dismiss your rant. I genuinely believe you are anti-semitic from the tone and content of your remarks. Your most recent offering reinforces my belief.
This is a Conservative forum not a place for quite disturbing extreme far right rants. You have consistently sought to undermine and relativise one of the worst atrocities in our time by raising all sorts of irrelevant comparisons and half truths.
You are arguing in bad faith. You explicitly deny the Nazi genocide and reveal yourself as a deluded fool with your remarks above. Whether you are actually malicious I cannot say.
I do believe you should be banned from this forum for Holocaust denial. I will discuss this with the other moderator.
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Post by Young Ireland on Aug 1, 2023 20:27:05 GMT
Maosheachlann, We can break the term White down into different groups if you wish. I'm simply using it as an umbrella term to describe a greater disdain towards people with white skin. White in this context isn't just a skin colour, but represents the shared histories of people and experiences of people. After all, most of the slander used against white people today is based on historical grievances - though I doubt the sincerity of these grievances myself, at least to the extent they are pushed. With that in mind, I don't see how Jews would get a pass as such a distinct group, whereas individual white groups wouldn't. Also, since we are talking about Jews and Whites, I would like to note that at one point I wouldn't have even made such a distinction. There was a time when I thought of Jews as just another group of white people like Anglos, Gaels, Meds, etc. It seems to be, from my experience, Jews who do not care for this comparison. Cato, I find it distasteful that you would casually brush off my post as a rant. Perhaps more so because you didn't even bother to elaborate. If you feel I have made claims that are lies and half-truths, I am open to hearing your critique and corrections. I do not pretend to know what I don't know. To suggest that acknowledging Jewish influence amounts to an "obsession" is disingenuous, as the world is obviously not such a black and white place. Yes, I think people with at least some understanding appreciate that the Middle East isn't united bar Israel. If it were, Israel most likely wouldn't exist. However, it is a fact that many large donors in US politics are Zionist Jews. It's also true that a lot of intelligence the US has comes from Israel. And remember, while I'm sure the Muslim countries of the ME want to have influence in the US too, it is Israel which holds the honour of being "America's greatest ally." In terms of worse atrocities, you have something like Genghis Khan's empire, most notably the massacre of Afghanistan. Perhaps that's a bit too far back. Mao Zedong's China is a modern example in terms of numbers, and in regards to cruelty I would say the atrocities of the Japanese army, with how they treated POWs and what they did in China. However, perhaps this all comes down to one's beliefs on the numbers. Personally, I find it unrealistic that Germany, in the 1940s, over the space of about 5 years, and on the verge of losing a war, somehow took the time and man-power to systematically execute and then cremate millions of bodies; meanwhile, Italy, 2020, using the full force of their military, somehow struggles to keep up with cremating a few thousands bodies. And keep in mind, 6 million - some are now trying to push it to 7 million, and higher - is only the Jewish victims, with another estimated 5 million for non-Jewish victims. The fact that certain other details about the Holocaust have been proven false, I fail to see how inflating the numbers would somehow be beyond the realms of possibility? For e.g., I once heard a story about how an American soldier was trampled to death by Jewish prisoners in one camp when it was liberated, because they were so desperate to get to the food being delivered to them. I wonder, how could someone, even a large group of people, so malnourished that they couldn't possibly have the strength, nor the energy to build up momentum, not only knock down a perfectly healthy soldier, but then somehow trample him to death with no resistance? To me, it sounds like a tale. I will leave it there for now. It isn't unrealistic when you consider that the Nazis were meticulous record-keepers and recorded everything about the genocide (they did try to destroy these documents towards the end of the war but didn't completely succeed). There's also evidence that in August 1944, Adolf Eichmann confided to Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl that 6,000,000 Jews had been killed by the Nazis: The records of the Governor General of Occupied Poland indicated that between between 2,400,000 and 3,400,000 Jews had been eliminated in a three-year period between 1941 and 1944. These are the Nazis' own figures, so a grand total of six million is definitely realistic.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 1, 2023 22:21:26 GMT
"White in this context isn't just a skin colour, but represents the shared histories of people and experiences of people."
I can't agree with this. What "shared history" is there between Australians agreed Americans, Icelanders and Greeks? Ethnicity and nationality are a better marker of this.
The Holocaust was unique in the systematic, scientific approach of its slaughter. Yes, Stalin and Mao killed millions, but not in the same targeted and methodical manner. Even the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg did not seek to deny the atrocities. Does it really matter to the bigger picture if lampshades made of human skin or similar stories are true?
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Post by hilary on Aug 1, 2023 22:30:38 GMT
Antaine with all due respect I didn't casually dismiss your rant. I genuinely believe you are anti-semitic from the tone and content of your remarks. Your most recent offering reinforces my belief. This is a Conservative forum not a place for quite disturbing extreme far right rants. You have consistently sought to undermine and relativise one of the worst atrocities in our time by raising all sorts of irrelevant comparisons and half truths. You are arguing in bad faith. You explicitly deny the Nazi genocide and reveal yourself as a deluded fool with your remarks above. Whether you are actually malicious I cannot say. I do believe you should be banned from this forum for Holocaust denial. I will discuss this with the other moderator. I thought it was a very reasonable post, Cato. Anti-semitic is a very vague term - Maolsheachlann's recent definition wasn't really satisfactory in my opinion because we all have biases and preferences (or prejudice, if you prefer) and hostility is like an emotion too. There are different types of Jew too and they don't all share the same beliefs. I came across an interesting interview with Gilad Atzmon, a jazz musician born in Israel. He wrote a book called "The Wandering Who?" about Jewish identity. www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkIJkDhdgIE&t=9sIf a Jewish person wanted to question the numbers who died in WW2, would that be ok? It doesn't really honour the dead to forbid discussion of what happened - after all, wasn't WW2 supposed to be about freedom? Repentance and forgiveness are Christian virtues really, aren't they?
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Post by hilary on Aug 1, 2023 22:43:32 GMT
Even the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg did not seek to deny the atrocities. Does it really matter to the bigger picture if lampshades made of human skin or similar stories are true? Confessions and admissions are not necessarily reliable evidence. Weren't some of them employed in the US after the War (Operation Paperclip)? I think it does matter if stories like about the lampshades are made up - why would they need to make up stories like that? It certainly should make people feel freer to question the narrative as a whole.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 2, 2023 7:47:35 GMT
Even the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg did not seek to deny the atrocities. Does it really matter to the bigger picture if lampshades made of human skin or similar stories are true? Confessions and admissions are not necessarily reliable evidence. Weren't some of them employed in the US after the War (Operation Paperclip)? I think it does matter if stories like about the lampshades are made up - why would they need to make up stories like that? It certainly should make people feel freer to question the narrative as a whole. There's a story that Padre Pio heard the confession of St. John Paul II and told him he would become Pope. JPII himself has denied it. Why did such a story come about? Does it prove Padre Pio lacked prophetic abilities or that JPII was not a great Pope? No, it's plausible because both those things are true. The lampshade story is plausible because of the real horrors of the Holocaust, including extraction of dental fillings. Antaine, we all know the white-bashing of the media and entertainment industry is wicked nonsense. Why let it affect you so much that you start to accept whiteness as the core of your identity? I really think you are being played.
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Post by cato on Aug 2, 2023 8:00:16 GMT
[quote Cato. Anti-semitic is a very vague term - Maolsheachlann's recent definition wasn't really satisfactory in my opinion because we all have biases and preferences (or prejudice, if you prefer) and hostility is like an emotion too. There are different types of Jew too and they don't all share the same beliefs. I came across an interesting interview with Gilad Atzmon, a jazz musician born in Israel. He wrote a book called "The Wandering Who?" about Jewish identity. www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkIJkDhdgIE&t=9sIf a Jewish person wanted to question the numbers who died in WW2, would that be ok? It doesn't really honour the dead to forbid discussion of what happened - after all, wasn't WW2 supposed to be about freedom? Repentance and forgiveness are Christian virtues really, aren't they? [/quote] Hilary this is more of the same nonsense Antaine is indulging in. Anti semitism is not a vague term. A decade ago this type of conversation would have been completely unacceptable. I can see Gemma O Doherty has at least two fellow travellers here on this site. Your remarks about repentance and forgiveness are not relevant here particularly when there is no notion of repentance or shame for holding such vile views. If you want David Irving light or "revisionist" discussion toddle over to a neo Fascist site.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 2, 2023 9:46:47 GMT
Minor inpass: the numbers, around 6 millions, would most likely be historical accurate. Neither David Irving "research" or Jew-haters need to be taken as serious contenders to meticulous historians. But... this forum would be best not indulging in narrow bans due to different personal views or understandings. It would be sad if various disagreements would turn into sour censoring. Apart from some few trolls, no bans have been necessary during all these years. Hopefully the special urgency in the Holocaust evil should not change the general tone of the forum in favour of broad room for debate or food for thoughts.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 2, 2023 9:52:55 GMT
[quote Cato. Anti-semitic is a very vague term - Maolsheachlann's recent definition wasn't really satisfactory in my opinion because we all have biases and preferences (or prejudice, if you prefer) and hostility is like an emotion too. There are different types of Jew too and they don't all share the same beliefs. I came across an interesting interview with Gilad Atzmon, a jazz musician born in Israel. He wrote a book called "The Wandering Who?" about Jewish identity. www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkIJkDhdgIE&t=9sIf a Jewish person wanted to question the numbers who died in WW2, would that be ok? It doesn't really honour the dead to forbid discussion of what happened - after all, wasn't WW2 supposed to be about freedom? Repentance and forgiveness are Christian virtues really, aren't they? Hilary this is more of the same nonsense Antaine is indulging in. Anti semitism is not a vague term. A decade ago this type of conversation would have been completely unacceptable. I can see Gemma O Doherty has at least two fellow travellers here on this site. Your remarks about repentance and forgiveness are not relevant here particularly when there is no notion of repentance or shame for holding such vile views. If you want David Irving light or "revisionist" discussion toddle over to a neo Fascist site. [/quote] Antisemitism is (!) a vague term. Used for both evil hate and lots of other things, not only prejudices or creepy lies etc but sometimes also for almost everything and nothing basically as politics of tainted misuse. Sad to acknowledge as much but also necessary. The trend towards more "tolerance" for the former is terrible, and far too widesprad by now just as you stated, but there is not valid reason to throw out free speech values because of abuse, and even less mixing real troubles with other uses of a loaded term, for instance like debatable areas, not this one, and uses of freedom itself. Will it not always be better to let everyone speak, and thus have to defend their own mistakes? Rather than rushing silence by censoring those who are wrong? To be wrong in this is not like being the obsessed troll that goes on to spam the forum, and less important as upsetter-capital also in the topic at discussion. I am well aware this might sound soft and vague but I just felt the postings above were overly hostile towards the other ones.
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