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Post by kj on Aug 4, 2017 13:03:16 GMT
Let's try and apply some fair self-criticism. What do you think are the failings of Conservatism?
In no particular order, some of my own impressions:
1) Sometimes a resentful unwillingness to respect the autonomy of others. Condemning others' lifestyles simply because it doesn't sit well with one's own preferences. Usually comes cloaked with the phrase 'This is very disturbing...'
2) Some religious conservatives give the impression they would like nothing more than to see a Theocracy established, with, of course, themselves as the New Inquisitors.
3) This is more to do with American Conservatism, but I do often get the impression that over there it is little more than the rich and propertied desperately trying to defend their wealth and status, a 'Screw you, Jack. I'm ok' kind of attitude. A form of pure personal selfishness and greed, often manifested in hostility to government and payment of taxes.
4) Nostalgia. A lauding of some past period that they themselves never experienced but have idealised as a 'Golden Age'. My own view is that human life is fundamentally messy and turbulent, always has been, always will be.
I'm sure there are more, but this is what comes to mind at present.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 13:06:27 GMT
I can agree with most of those-- all of them to some extent-- but, regarding 4), it's very rare that anyone actually claims something was a golden era or perfect. That accusation is made by their opponents.
I have plenty of my own to suggest, but not just now. It's a great idea for a thread.
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Post by Stephen on Aug 4, 2017 13:16:22 GMT
I think Conservatise tend to care more about raising families, working and other activities. Which is good and bad but does not always help the movement.
Could you develop 3 more? It sounds very socialist to me, but I could be picking you up wrong.
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Post by ZenoOfCitium on Aug 4, 2017 13:43:19 GMT
The main weakness is the difficulty in communicating a conservative political programme as conservatism is not an ideology but rather primarily a disposition of character, informed by knowledge of human nature as it is, not as it may be wished to be.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 14:40:04 GMT
I agree, Zeno. Conservatism is a disposition and it's very hard to argue for that in propositional terms.
Another weakness is, I think, caricaturing of liberals/socialists/progressives. I am tired of hearing conservatives argue that conservatism is based on reason and logic, while liberalism is based on emotion and wishful thinking. Of course, there are different strands of conservatism. A neoconservative might plausibly make this argument, whether it falls or stands. But I do think that most other conservatives are motivated by emotion as well as reason, to some degree at least.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 14:45:29 GMT
Another criticism I have of conservatism is how glibly we accuse our opponents of "utopianism".
Wanting to make the world a better place is not the same as wanting to make the world perfect.
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Post by kj on Aug 4, 2017 15:03:37 GMT
Another one for me is the weird resentment in certain Conservatives circles about stats that suggest lowering global rates of extreme poverty, lower child mortality, higher literacy etc etc and these are somehow not good things, possibly because it threatens the 'The world is going to the dogs' syndrome so beloved of many conservatives.
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Post by kj on Aug 4, 2017 15:08:47 GMT
Just to clarify, when I said 'weaknesses' I meant 'the Bad things about conservatism', not 'strategic challenges' or 'tactical difficulties'. I've amended the thread title to reflect that.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 15:48:45 GMT
Just to clarify, when I said 'weaknesses' I meant 'the Bad things about conservatism', not 'strategic challenges' or 'tactical difficulties'. I've amended the thread title to reflect that. Yes, I was pondering over the difference earlier, but it's hard to separate them entirely. Many strategic and tactical challenges are rooted in weaknesses of one's basic conception. I do think the whole "decline" narrative is problematic-- that's what I was trying to get at in my thread regarding good things about modernity.
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Post by cato on Aug 4, 2017 16:31:58 GMT
I think some 'conservatives' are moaners who do absolutely nothing but moan. I know of some who never bother voting for example coming out with a refrain "they are all the same". I think they are really grumpy complainers rather than conservative in any meaningful sense.
Part of being conservative is managing change. Face it what have conservatives ever rolled back let alone conserved ? Leftists and progressives want revolutionary change . Conservatives try to limit change and see it something ideally we should do gradually and that should evolve after we judge it to be a real improvement that betters society and individual's freedom. That's the theory.
I don't think conservatism is bad. It has a bad image, is countercultural at its best but is politically weak. It also suffers from individualism - conservatives generally are not the types who devote their lives to causes and meetings
.However to get power you need to organise plan ,campaign and seek to influence opinion.You also need to create a broad church movement like American Republicans did in the 1970s uniting groups that don't agree on everything but come together to fight for an agreed agenda. Conservatives dont have the zeal of their opponents. Its the old Yeatsian line - The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity.
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Post by MourningIreland on Aug 4, 2017 17:45:18 GMT
...I don't think conservatism is bad. It has a bad image, is countercultural at its best but is politically weak. It also suffers from individualism - conservatives generally are not the types who devote their lives to causes and meetings .However to get power you need to organise plan ,campaign and seek to influence opinion.You also need to create a broad church movement like American Republicans did in the 1970s uniting groups that don't agree on everything but come together to fight for an agreed agenda. Conservatives dont have the zeal of their opponents. Its the old Yeatsian line - The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity. In America, conservatives today absolutely have the zeal of their opponents - this is what carried Trump into office, in spite of a rigged election and a media, political, and Hollywood establishment that did everything possible to destroy his campaign, a campaign that was mocked relentlessly from the day he rode down the escalator at Trump Tower. Whether the zeal of this motley coalition can be sustained enough to withstand the onslaught, which has a bottomless war chest at its disposal, remains to be seen.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 18:35:15 GMT
I like this thread so much I'm making it a sticky. If anyone thinks that's over-enthusiastic, just say and I'll rethink it.
I just think that self-questioning, intellectual honesty and ability to see the opposite point of view are crucially important.
It might be more suitably housed in the "Conservatism and Irishness" section. But that's already sticky-heavy, so I'll leave it here.
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Post by servantofthechief on Aug 4, 2017 19:37:54 GMT
"Part of being conservative is managing change. Face it what have conservatives ever rolled back let alone conserved ?"
This is why I don't actually consider myself a conservative as much as a traditionalist or a counter-revolutionary. I DO actively want to roll things back, I don't want to 'manage' change as the very concept is handing initiative over to the left and the liberals. I want to effect change in our own interests, our vision for the future and the present rather than theirs, a positive disposition rather than a simply passive one, which conservative.inc by dint, actually is.
My position does however carry with it a certain degree of militancy in personality and outlook, which most conservatives either don't posses or have been actively conditioned to fear having, as it is a trait associated with left wing activism. I have no 'golden era' I want to get back to, I have ideas about what I would do now. I don't agree with the Alt Right about a lot of things but almost every criticism the Alt Right/Alt Lite/New Right/what have you has on traditional political conservatism is bang on the money.
I guess I am saying the problem I have about conservatism is its an oxymoron and will continue to be until some real definitives change in the public perception of what conservtism means. For example, not a single man in the Easter Rising, either side of the Irish civil war, the Gaelic revival before it, or the two parties that dominate the Republic after it was a 'conservative'. They were certain not liberal, but neither were they conservatives. They were traditionalists, radicals, revolutionaries, anything and everything under the sun bar those two labels. Realising that puts modern talk of liberalism/conservatism into perspective. The ideas we have about both of them, fundamentally, come from OTHER peoples' perceptions of the concepts. Therein lies the kafka trap we've been stuck in for the past few decades that other countries have been stuck in for a century or more: this is all smoke and mirrors, I would say they may have even been intended that way, the terms and the ideologies they represent are masks to hide what they really are. Liberals - Tomorrow's communists, Conservatives - Yesterdays liberals, rinse and repeat. Two sides of the same wooden coin of the Enlightenment era.
That is what I think is bad about conservatism.
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Post by cato on Aug 4, 2017 20:27:31 GMT
Servanttothechief I sympathise with your position somewhat. It is immensely frustrating and at times depressing to live in our politically correct/corrupt era. But here is the but ...!
Where has there been a successful counter revolution in our time? Conservatives of a certain colour sympathised with General Pinochet who stopped Chilean marxism with a military coup and became the darling of the free market right when he implemented drastic economic policies combined with a hands off approach to crushing and torturing his opponents. As soon as people got a free vote he got his pension and travel pass.
Conservatism is anti revolutionary be that of the left but also of the far right as revolutions are by and large destructive and sweep away much of the good along with the evils they seek to remedy.
The way we change people is ultimately to change the way we all think, desire and ultimately act. We are I believe at the highpoint of liberal leftist consumerism secularism (what a mouthful!). It has been building up arguably for a couple of centuries. It will eventually collapse in a century or so if we conservatives keep nibbling away and create alternative options. We are at the early stages I hope of an alternative but it ain't going to happen until people lose faith in the present way of living and thinking.
Your remarks about Irish conservatives of the revolutionary period are puzzling .Men like De Valera, Cosgrave , Kevin O Higgins Ernest Blythe and Richard Mulcahy were conservative to their finger tips.
We do need to be fighters I agree but its going to be a very very long fight.
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Post by cato on Aug 4, 2017 20:37:44 GMT
I should also add unlike liberalism conservatives dont believe politics can perfect this world ultimately. We may be created equally by God but we are also flawed by sin and brokeness. There are some things government just can't fix.Sometimes all we can do is to try not to make things any worse .
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