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Post by Tomas on Oct 4, 2017 22:29:44 GMT
Perhaps unwittingly I will attempt to state in parts another opinion to this. Living in Sweden where we have already gone more far away in those directions that you perhaps still see more as a coming threat than plain actuality: mass immigration has already happened (at least one or two decades ago), Catholicism has already been massively marginalised (centuries back...), politics has already been dominated by the Left and the Liberals for about 100 years, etc. What I wonder is why Cumberbatch would "deserve" to get so much criticised for a single personal opinion made public. Isn´t is just as much hypocrisy to blame him personally as to throw at any liberal opponent group as a whole and sweepingly, and probably in the end turn up making a just as easy statements for his (the critic´s party´s) own agenda in the matter? What does how rich anyone is have to do with the ideas or debate? I would rather have seen it granted this super-talented citizen full recognition instead. Just as his critic would deserve the same! What he said may not be worth anything and may be "wrong". To be sure of that one would have to consider lots of things. But honestly I cannot see any harm in it. Wasn´t this of any democratic value to hear?? Even if one has a different view, his political statement was legitimate to the full and important if only as ordinary free-speech from a "famous genius". In Sweden it wouldn´t even be controversial to critise either side, the crucial issues here are more about the State system itself than the personal views about the levels of immigrants. The only thing that could make things better is not even on the map for a broadcaster to find though. Traditional Catholicism...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 5:56:56 GMT
I think the reason people criticise people like Cumberbatch is because he is insulated from the consequences of his proposals. Mass immigration affects people at the bottom, who have to deal with the added competition for jobs, school places, transport, hospital care, and so forth. I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's frustrating when these celebrities all have the same opinion and are so dismissive of those who think differently.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 7:10:04 GMT
Well it may look like they have the same opinion almost simultaneously but if there are streamlined views among them couldn´t the same be said for all other citizens as well? My impression is that "Alt Right rhetoric" like in Bannon´s criticism here tends to be a kind of populism that misses the target somehow. Saying things like: "The character actor is filthy rich. The only thing stopping him from purchasing and providing housing for Syrian refugees is his own grasping greed and lack of humanity for the children." sounds more like a rude way of throwing false facts than anything helpful to a conservative idea of a good society. Cumberbatch´s intention was hardly anything like that whatever it was. Grasping greed and lack of humanity for the children is just non-sensical.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 7:22:24 GMT
There is some divergence of opinion amongst the "champagne socialists" but extraordinarily little, and I think this is why they seem so insincere and shallow, especially in their contradictions- anti- homophobia but pro-Islam, for instance.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 7:31:55 GMT
I think it´s a mistake to be too generalising about enormous groups of opponents like them. Why dump him together with all the rest? His intentions were more probably sincere compassion than a greedy device to cure bad conscience, is my guess.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 7:33:29 GMT
The contradiction between anti-homphobia and pro-islam hits the nail well indeed!
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Post by cato on Oct 5, 2017 8:14:27 GMT
David Quinn wrote about the pressures on housing lists and welfare provision with the new population influxes in last weeks Sunday Times. He sought data under the Freedom of Information Act. It is interesting no politician did this first. I lent the article to another reactionary so I don't recall the figures now but Ireland has more non nationals as a proportion of population 17% than Germany France Sweden or Germany. Some 37% of people seeking social housing are non natuonal.
These figures are never discussed in public. Maybe ,magically, immigration costs nothing to fund . I doubt this somehow as it would have been loudly proclaimed by now. For the moment our media and politicians maintain a Pope Francis like stoney silence on the issue while preaching the goodness of diversity and the wickedness of Islamophobia.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 8:22:46 GMT
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 8:25:59 GMT
David Quinn wrote about the pressures on housing lists and welfare provision with the new population influxes in last weeks Sunday Times. He sought data under the Freedom of Information Act. It is interesting no politician did this first. I lent the article to another reactionary so I don't recall the figures now but Ireland has more non nationals as a proportion of population 17% than Germany France Sweden or Germany. Some 37% of people seeking social housing are non natuonal. These figures are never discussed in public. Maybe ,magically, immigration costs nothing to fund . I doubt this somehow as it would have been loudly proclaimed by now. For the moment our media and politicians maintain a Pope Francis like stoney silence on the issue while preaching the goodness of diversity and the wickedness of Islamophobia. "But they pay taxes" is always the argument-- as though money was everything and infrastructure was nothing. I'm sure somebody who can't find a home is pleased to hear that tax revenue is up. Besides, there are also cultural considerations to take into account. |
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 9:03:20 GMT
With all respect for the obvious troubles (one don´t have to be for or against EU immigration strategy to admit there are immense troubles built in to the whole mess) the first thing to stress in the present actual state for me is its compelling complexity. Economic stagnation and cultural losses are evident and not possible to deny in any foreseeable time. Religious issues or consequences are not reducable in the same way. Of course we could wish for another reality but nevertheless it is far too late to change the place to start from now. In my hometown the official statistics records 31,6 % of the population with so called foreign background. That includes only those that are either born abroad or born here but with BOTH parents born abroad, so the numbers would be much higher still if they also included those with only one parent born abroad and the second generation immigrants etc. Maybe the Holy Father is not as dubious as he usually is pictured after all but more in the mind of sad realpolitik?
Also: it is neither the voters or the Catholic Church that has brought in the EU immigration strategy in the first place, but the Elites of Europe in power, so the only real choice left (outside Poland and Hungary..) is perhaps only to labour for conversions in the long run. Complaints and Populism does not change the situation any more than what Pope Francis says about it? |
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 9:09:28 GMT
For Cumberbatch´s speech from The Guardian article it does not strike me as so controversial compared to Swedish voices. Simply an ordinary view, however weak in practical terms, and if he has used his fame to fund so many thousands of pounds for refugee help (whatever that means) it just seems even more strange to accuse him of being greedy etc.
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Post by cato on Oct 5, 2017 10:04:17 GMT
David Quinn wrote about the pressures on housing lists and welfare provision with the new population influxes in last weeks Sunday Times. He sought data under the Freedom of Information Act. It is interesting no politician did this first. I lent the article to another reactionary so I don't recall the figures now but Ireland has more non nationals as a proportion of population 17% than Germany France Sweden or Germany. Some 37% of people seeking social housing are non natuonal. These figures are never discussed in public. Maybe ,magically, immigration costs nothing to fund . I doubt this somehow as it would have been loudly proclaimed by now. For the moment our media and politicians maintain a Pope Francis like stoney silence on the issue while preaching the goodness of diversity and the wickedness of Islamophobia. "But they pay taxes" is always the argument-- as though money was everything and infrastructure was nothing. I'm sure somebody who can't find a home is pleased to hear that tax revenue is up. Besides, there are also cultural considerations to take into account. Agreed maolsheachlann but there is also a suspicion the net economic cost is not as rosy as it is implied. I have never seen a comparison of taxes raised versus new expenditure brought about by new immigrant's needs. For example there is a serious housing crisis for several years yet when we bring in new immigrants we are told this will have no impact on the housing situation! Maybe this means things are so bad they won't make a difference but for example Syrian refugees who are being housed are logically being given preference over people already in the queue. To say this naturally enough is racist. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 10:11:55 GMT
With all respect for the obvious troubles (one don´t have to be for or against EU immigration strategy to admit there are immense troubles built in to the whole mess) the first thing to stress in the present actual state for me is its compelling complexity. Economic stagnation and cultural losses are evident and not possible to deny in any foreseeable time. Religious issues or consequences are not reducable in the same way. Of course we could wish for another reality but nevertheless it is far too late to change the place to start from now. In my hometown the official statistics records 31,6 % of the population with so called foreign background. That includes only those that are either born abroad or born here but with BOTH parents born abroad, so the numbers would be much higher still if they also included those with only one parent born abroad and the second generation immigrants etc. Maybe the Holy Father is not as dubious as he usually is pictured after all but more in the mind of sad realpolitik?
Also: it is neither the voters or the Catholic Church that has brought in the EU immigration strategy in the first place, but the Elites of Europe in power, so the only real choice left (outside Poland and Hungary..) is perhaps only to labour for conversions in the long run. Complaints and Populism does not change the situation any more than what Pope Francis says about it? The problem is that the elites are pushing for ever MORE immigration, open borders, and multiculturalism, despite the fact that it's caused such evident problems. I don't see anything the matter with populism myself. As for Cumberbatch, I wouldn't accuse him of being greedy per se. Just irresponsible and condescending. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 5, 2017 10:28:15 GMT
I don't want to seem heartless about refugees. I do think we have a responsibility to refugees. However, there are two points to be made:
1) I think the best way to accommodate refugees is as close to home as possible, where they can return as soon as possible.
2) The Syrian situation seems to have been the occasion for quite an exodus of opportunists from this area.
The Syrian situation seems to have provided an opportunity for open-borders ideologues and virtue-signallers like Cumberbatch to push their agenda.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 5, 2017 11:01:16 GMT
I don´t say against you. All the same the problem lingers that as long as powerful politicans goes for populist talking and "easy solutions" policies, rather than really beat the Elite politics behind the liberal world´s mess that they profess to oppose, who cares to vote for them? If populism would leave room for old school conservatism maybe the action could be towards not actors opinions but the real strategic politics that more or less puts whole nations in bondage?
Yes, especially the last wave from Syria then seemed most suspicious from day one. The main flaw in his statements was probably its timing and that admittedly makes it looks terribly naive (or very wrong if he knew better). But why so much to bother about a single man´s rants. He is not a prime minister and has no political power at all at his hands. |
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