|
|
Post by kj on Sept 7, 2020 19:23:49 GMT
It does of course as an address, but does it exist as a cultural force and political influence? I came across this debate from the RTE archives from 1993, which features amongst others Desmond Fennell and Michael McDowell having a sharp disagreement. Fennell begins by pushing his standard anti-liberal, anti-cosmopolitan line; McDowell retorts with a bit of an ad hominem mixed with what would be the 'standard' view. It's only seven minutes, and also acts as a bit of a nostalgia provider in reminding me how major a figure Bibi Baskin was in the 90s! Does Dublin 4 Exist? |
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Sept 9, 2020 10:24:00 GMT
These seven minutes made sense as debate. Limited as it was at least it allowed viewers to take it for an open question. Somehow the truth might have been glimpsed somewhere on the sideline, or in the summa of their differences.
|
|
|
|
Post by assisi on Sept 9, 2020 13:07:59 GMT
I'm a big fan of Desmond Fennell but he did call himself an 'intellectual' at the start, which comes across as a trifle arrogant. Mind you McDowall is a pretty unlikeable character. Bibi Baskin was born up in God's country, Ardara in Donegal. Just checked her wikipedia she is now into mindfulness and wellness and gives motivational talks. She now lives in Cork but spent 15 years in India studying 'ayurveda' which Wikipedia describes as: Ayurveda is an alternative medicine system with historical roots in the Indian subcontinent. The theory and practice of Ayurveda is pseudoscientific. The Indian Medical Association characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery.
An example of 'ayurveda': The ancient Indian system of Wellness called Ayurveda advises us to bring in change in three gradual goes. For example if you’re trying to live a healthier lifestyle then change one third of your diet firstly. Then after a couple of weeks, introduce the second third, so to speak. And after a few more weeks, the final third. I think it makes sense. A gentle approach.
Seems just like a bit of common sense really. Interesting how people can go from the rural Ardara to ending up steeped in Indian alternative medicine. I guess we all have to earn a living. |
|
|
|
Post by kj on Sept 9, 2020 14:47:05 GMT
Assisi, yes, Fennell makes a big error in labelling himself as an 'intellectual' there. If anything, acting humbly as a 'man of the people' as opposed to the D4 media might have served him better.
I read somewhere that he was booed off The Late Late in 1996 in a debate on the Gaeltacht but I've never seen it.
I had no idea about Bibi in India and Cork! I looked her up and found an interview from 2018. I must admit I wouldn't have recognised her. Oh well, good luck to her, I suppose.
I wonder how Fennell is these days. He's 91 I believe and his website seems to be no longer in action.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 10, 2020 8:28:18 GMT
Assisi, yes, Fennell makes a big error in labelling himself as an 'intellectual' there. If anything, acting humbly as a 'man of the people' as opposed to the D4 media might have served him better. I read somewhere that he was booed off The Late Late in 1996 in a debate on the Gaeltacht but I've never seen it. I had no idea about Bibi in India and Cork! I looked her up and found an interview from 2018. I must admit I wouldn't have recognised her. Oh well, good luck to her, I suppose. I wonder how Fennell is these days. He's 91 I believe and his website seems to be no longer in action. I sat beside him at a John Waters talk a few years ago. I see it was June 2016. He was complaining he couldn't hear much of the time. Fr. Brian McKevitt was sitting on my other side. I've never really been able to muster much pride in being a Dubliner. I think Fennell's definition of the Dublin 4 crowd as those who oppose the dream which issued from the Irish Revolution. Bang on. Yes, I think they exist, but they are now so hegemonic that giving them a name seems redundant. |
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 10, 2020 8:33:46 GMT
Sadly Michael McDowell makes a good point. People like Desmond Fennell and John Waters, and many of those who oppose the reigning ethos of today's Ireland, are to a great extent in denial of just how pervasive that ethos really is. It's not just a clique.
|
|
|
|
Post by kj on Sept 10, 2020 9:48:04 GMT
Maolsheachlann, to be fair I think both know that it is the prevailing ethic. Fennell can at least say he fought the good fight; indeed I believe one of the last things he wrote alluded to Irish culture 'sinking with dignity' or some such as being the best we can hope for.
Waters seems to be at a new high point of rebellion, and he and Gemma O'Doherty seem to be now married ideologically at the hip.
I've been reflecting the past few days on the concept of Indifference and how it seems to have garnered little study.
Sure there are ideological debates and battles, but is it not a fair point that in most of history 90-95% of people have been generally indifferent to what goes on around them in terms of the bigger picture? And indeed Liberalism seems to have cleverly noticed that and is cashing in on it: bread and circuses etc. Any actual solid belief is just greeted with mockery and sneering. Maybe Liberalism could be defined as the Ideology of Indifference?
|
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 10, 2020 9:59:42 GMT
Maolsheachlann, to be fair I think both know that it is the prevailing ethic. Fennell can at least say he fought the good fight; indeed I believe one of the last things he wrote alluded to Irish culture 'sinking with dignity' or some such as being the best we can hope for. Waters seems to be at a new high point of rebellion, and he and Gemma O'Doherty seem to be now married ideologically at the hip. I've been reflecting the past few days on the concept of Indifference and how it seems to have garnered little study. Sure there are ideological debates and battles, but is not a fair point that in most of history 90-95% of people have been generally indifferent to what goes on around them in terms of the bigger picture? And indeed Liberalism seems to have cleverly noticed that and is cashing in on it: bread and circuses etc. Any actual solid belief is just greeted with mockery and sneering. Maybe Liberalism could be defined as the Ideology of Indifference? I personally think that "woke" ideology has pervaded the general population by now, although it's much more watered-down in most people than it is in the D4 crowd, or liberal elite, or whatever. |
|
|
|
Post by kj on Sept 10, 2020 10:12:58 GMT
Very true, although I would say that 'woke' ideology is the easiest kind to insert in a broader indifference. It means you have no preferences, no beliefs, think everyone is equal, whilst simultaneously elevating minorities to some sort of morally superior status, but without actually doing anything to help them most of the time. it's a pretty cost-free morality.
I've certainly noticed that in the Irish people I know who are in their 30s. They all seem to adamantly subscribe to it. None of them actually do anything to help others as far as I'm aware.
Like all generalisations, it's chancy but I would say any Irish person born from 1985 on is quite likely to be in the 'woke' category to some degree or other.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 10, 2020 11:23:38 GMT
Very true, although I would say that 'woke' ideology is the easiest kind to insert in a broader indifference. It means you have no preferences, no beliefs, think everyone is equal, whilst simultaneously elevating minorities to some sort of morally superior status, but without actually doing anything to help them most of the time. it's a pretty cost-free morality. I've certainly noticed that in the Irish people I know who are in their 30s. They all seem to adamantly subscribe to it. None of them actually do anything to help others as far as I'm aware. Like all generalisations, it's chancy but I would say any Irish person born from 1985 on is quite likely to be in the 'woke' category to some degree or other. I recently had a member of my immediate family accuse me of "Alt Right" rhetoric, for mocking the buzzwords in some left-wing article-- patriarchy, nationalism, brown people, fascism. |
|
|
|
Post by cato on Sept 10, 2020 13:04:59 GMT
I can't recall when I last used the D4 label . It was a useful label but it has now gone the way of the Dodo, dancing at the crossroads and packed Sunday Mass. As pointed out above by Maolsheachlann it is by and large the prevailing ideology in Ireland of 2020. It's greatest successes include delivering the richest economy in our history, sexual liberation and massive cultural and social change. This cultural/economic revolution is overall almost universally popular and accepted.
I wonder though are we a little bit complacent in thinking this is as bad as it gets. Classical liberals like Michael Mc Dowell do stand up for free speech and the more draconian Covid laws. I also think he is an exception as most liberals are prepared to constantly shift their position in response to leftist university inspired ideologues.
The race obsessed ,anti law and order gender theory ideologues of the USA have their disciples here. Does anyone doubt we will not follow this trend especially if we see a Biden victory in November? The Anarchist leanings and structures of groups like Antifa don't get enough serious study. Anarchism is rarely discussed by the right but arguably it is one of the prime forces behind the current unrest. I recall Chesterton gave Anarchism a lot of attention and it was a major force in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s.
It is a force we should not ignore.
|
|
|
|
Post by assisi on Sept 10, 2020 14:06:32 GMT
I am convinced that the true source of the worst of left/liberalism we see in the likes of antifa, blm and extinction rebellion are due to the self loathing that these people possess.
They generally don't believe in God, so don't have a transcendent side to their life. I think that many come from backgrounds where the family life is dysfunctional, not just one parent families but from well-to-do small families where the parents have indulged their kids materially but have shown little warmth or love. I also think that many of these younger people are leading aimless lives, have waffly degrees that no-one respects, and have probably dabbled in porn, drugs, promiscuity and still found that they are none the happier. They feel sullied by the things they have done, but knowing little alternative, come to hate themselves and their lives.
However, instead of seeking a way out of this quandary they stew in their own impotence. Suddenly everything in the outside world that is wholesome, productive, disciplined and traditional appears an affront to their inner turmoil. Anyone who is happy should not be allowed to be so. A picture of a father, mother and child is a reminder of their own dissolute life and lack of responsibility and should be opposed in some way. Someone that believes in God and has meaning and direction in life is a stark contrast to their aimlessness and should therefore be blamed for something. Happiness, contentment, hard work, order and structure become anathema to them; they want the opposite, chaos and destruction - if they can't be happy then everyone else should be the same.
It's one of the reasons that is almost impossible to have a logical conversation with any leftist from these groups. They are often not interested in hearing anything else as their involvement is purely emotional, psychological or spiritual. They can only respond with name calling (homophobe, racist, fascist etc).
Ultimately they are very very sad people. A few will come round to a bit of sense at some point, but many will continue into middle age being angry and hitting out at every perceived slight. They are also dangerous people because they will pass on their neuroses to other generations
The universities and mainstream media have a lot to answer for as they have indoctrinated these people to a fever pitch and have ruined many lives.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Sept 10, 2020 14:26:33 GMT
They feel sullied by the things they have done, but knowing little alternative, come to hate themselves and their lives. structure become anathema to them It's one of the reasons that is almost impossible to have a logical conversation with any leftist from these groups. They are often not interested in hearing anything else as their involvement is purely emotional, psychological or spiritual. They can only respond with name calling (homophobe, racist, fascist etc). many will continue into middle age hitting out at every perceived slight. They are also dangerous people The universities and mainstream media have a lot to answer for as they have indoctrinated these people to a fever pitch and have ruined many lives. I´m afraid this purely psychological side is decisive. To effect that it is very hard to change by sheer will. And yes, most errorist ideologues in the Leftist universities do have a lot of wasted energy on their consciences. |
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Sept 10, 2020 14:36:21 GMT
Very true, although I would say that 'woke' ideology is the easiest kind to insert in a broader indifference. It means you have no preferences, no beliefs, think everyone is equal, whilst simultaneously elevating minorities to some sort of morally superior status, but without actually doing anything to help them most of the time. Like all generalisations, it's chancy but I would say any Irish person born from 1985 on is quite likely to be in the 'woke' category to some degree or other. I recently had a member of my immediate family accuse me of "Alt Right" rhetoric, for mocking the buzzwords in some left-wing article-- patriarchy, nationalism, brown people, fascism. Take it as a badge of honour you did say it nonetheless. When you know it is only copied "slander" it might hurt less. If it was meant in honest there is nothing to do but offer it up? When we first came into discussion on PC the whole agenda on slandering were quite unknown to me. Now a few years later it all fits in well into a pattern: when arguments fail some more or less nasty rhetoric sets in. (Works both ways so I appreciate greatly that the guidelines for this forum especially states the meaning in not being deliberately "gratuitous insulting" towards others.) |
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 10, 2020 14:45:38 GMT
(Works both ways so I appreciate greatly that the guidelines for this forum especially states the meaning in not being deliberately "gratuitous insulting" towards others.) I take great satisfaction that this forum has maintained such a tone of respect and politeness, without any flame wars or personal attacks. |
|
