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Post by rogerbuck on May 12, 2017 8:10:03 GMT
In the last year, I have become deeply interested in the phenomenon of the New Right, called Alt-Right in America.
Now, I am horrified by the racism that is so central to this movement, perhaps particularly in the American version. (By contrast the European New Right does seem a little different, at least in certain streams. Alain de Benoist, the founding figure of the French Nouvelle Droite, has clearly denounced racism and I think him to be a sincere man.)
But whilst I regard this new outbreak of racism as appalling, diabolical even, I do see strands of real sanity, meaning and importance in the movement within certain strands or figures at least - particularly in de Benoist where, dare I say it, I even see genius. Not a word I use lightly.
There seems, at its best, a powerful incisive critique of globalism and liberalism as de-humanising us, rendering humanity ever more abstract, de-racinated, inorganic and robotic.
Again, I am more with the French side than the American side of which I know far, far, far less.
I plan to say more. Right now, I just want to raise the subject to see what others think. I am very interested in any observations at all regarding this, either in international terms or to how it may impact Ireland.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 12, 2017 10:36:00 GMT
So much to say on this, when I get a chance.
Though there is some VERY disturbing stuff coming out of the Alt Right, I do understand why they are reacting against "cuckservatism"-- that is, cuckolded conservatism, which has proved that it will be give way again and again and again when it comes down to it. It seems to me quite obvious that mainstream conservatism is playing a losing game.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 12, 2017 10:37:53 GMT
In Irish terms, I think the Alt Right can be undersood as similar to the "advanced nationalism" at the turn of the century, which rejected the Irish Parliamentary Party (and, though the analogy is not exact, constitutionalism as a whole) as having failed time and time again.
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Post by kj on May 12, 2017 13:11:05 GMT
The Alt-Right is interesting and has seeds of a genuine movement, but the problem is that at present it is largely reactionary. It knows what it dislikes but when it tries to provide a positive reply it fragments into differing trends.
I would say that if you are a Christian or a Catholic, be wary. The impression I have is that many of its members or adherents hate Christianity. They seem to blame its universalism and urge to charity for 'diluting' the purity of the West/Europe etc. Even worse, a lot of the more neanderthal members advocate Paganism/Thor worshipping etc. And then we have the straight-out Nazis who are not shy about their anti-semitism and general racism.
Handle with extreme care.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 12, 2017 13:20:06 GMT
Handle with extreme care. Yes, indeed. And I feel like re-iterating I still know very little about the American version. And it is the American version reaching Ireland, alas - for the same linguistic reasons you invoked on another thread, Kj. There does seem to me much better stuff coming from France, still problematic, but actually inspired and not just simplistic reaction. I will try to post about this when I can find time. Alas, it will take some explaining and I type slowly ...
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Post by kj on May 12, 2017 14:01:15 GMT
I have the impression that even for the religious involved in those movements there will come a time when they have to choose between their religion and their politics. Many of them see religion as part of their culture and tradition, but are not believers per se, a la Charles Maurras.
Whether from a church perspective one would welcome them purely in terms of swelling the numbers depends on one's perspective.
I have heard one of the American leaders of the movement, Greg Johnson, declare that he wishes Catholics and especially militant Catholics were more vocal about their faith.
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Post by hglundahl on May 12, 2017 16:12:39 GMT
"But whilst I regard this new outbreak of racism as appalling, diabolical even, I do see strands of real sanity, meaning and importance in the movement within certain strands or figures at least - particularly in de Benoist where, dare I say it, I even see genius. Not a word I use lightly"
Have not read him, so far.
Perhaps seen him on youtube - any printed books you can recommend?
Or, obviously, blogs?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 12, 2017 18:52:28 GMT
I agree the Alt Right should be handled with care, but I think there's an element of hysteria about the reaction to them. Which is worse-- racism or abortion? I would argue that abortion is much, much worse than racism. Indeed, many things which might be called "racism" are not really racism or necessarily bad at all-- such as a clear-eyed view of multiculturalism. So I don't understand how many Christians can have admiring words for many a pro-abortion celebrity or pundit, because they say something nice about religion, but react with horror to racists.
For instance, Jack Nicholson is often hailed as prolife because he said he was personally against abortion-- but he still believes in "the right to choose". If he had said, for instance, that all races were equal in his eyes, but that he thought businesses should have the right to discriminate, would that be tolerated?
I think this double-standard reached its nadir when Mark Shea, a Catholic blogger I used to admire, said he would have felt duty-bound to vote for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump in a swing state. Because abortion isn't as bad as saying nasty things about (some) Mexicans. So, yes, caution towards the Alt Right, but let's not overdo it.
I do however agree that many of them will have to ultimately choose between their politics and their faith.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 12, 2017 20:03:30 GMT
Maolsheachlann, your last post was so clear, rational - wonderful. Breaking through the foggy, hysterical "thinking" of our time with clear REASON. So much so that it makes me almost ashamed of the following response to you,hglundahl: "But whilst I regard this new outbreak of racism as appalling, diabolical even, I do see strands of real sanity, meaning and importance in the movement within certain strands or figures at least - particularly in de Benoist where, dare I say it, I even see genius. Not a word I use lightly" Have not read him, so far. Perhaps seen him on youtube - any printed books you can recommend? Or, obviously, blogs? The printed book I would recommend is MANIFESTO FOR A EUROPEAN RENAISSANCE, which has the advantage of being very, very short. And here I'm afraid I enter into terrifying contradictions, which Maolsheachlann's clear-headed, rational, post about abortion vs racism only serves to illumine. For I say that de Benoist denounces racism, but he does not not denounce abortion ... He is also very much pagan and anti-Christian. Despite my terrifying contradictions, I stand by what I said about "genius". It is _bizarre_: the man actually reminds me of that very ROMAN figure Belloc - but he expresses a pre-Christian Rome. And he expresses in incredibly erudite, clear articulate ways what I said above about the West becoming ever more de-racinated, soulless, robotic and ABSTRACT. Here - to take one tiny example - is what he writes of feminism. Yes, there is the horrifying support for abortion here. But everything else is a complete challenge to liberalism. I am adding some bold for emphasis: This is again but a _tiny_ sample. The man has a massive wide-ranging critique of what is destroying the soul of Europe, in which he very much features American liberalism including economic liberalism. I find his stuff very, very potent - but, like the rest of the French New Right it needs to be BAPTISED. I am not saying that it is not terribly, terribly problematic in numerous respects. (BTW - in talking about the French Nouvelle Droite, I should make clear this has nothing to do with the National Front in France. I imagine de Benoist would abhor Le Pen and say that he and his daughter are very much Old Right rather than New Right.)
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Post by rogerbuck on May 12, 2017 20:37:32 GMT
A little while ago I wrote:
And it's true - I see many bizarre correspondences between de Benoist and Belloc.
But here I am happy to say where the great Belloc completely distinguishes himself from de Benoist. This is what de Benoit doesn't get - or I suspect _refuses_ to get:
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Post by kj on May 13, 2017 10:22:45 GMT
I think you guys may be underestimating the depths of the racism of much of the so-called Alt-Right. If you go on their online forums it's not too long before talk of violence, lynching, gas chambers, the crudest forms of anti-semitism etc kick off.
As for analysing the malaise of contemporary society, to be honest I think it's become old hat at this stage. There are a myriad of thinkers and theories who fundamentally all say the same thing: the French Revolution was the event that kicked off the desacralisation of Europe and here we are in a materialistic society. Fine, we get it. This is not new news.
The real question and challenge for those who dislike this state of affairs is what are you going to do about it?
Also, and I don't mean this as a snarky comment but honesty is needed: most people seem happy with materialism, the pushing back of the Church etc. To say they are 'deluded' or whatever could easily be an instance of question-begging or a form of the Marxist theory of 'false consciousness' ie anyone who doesn't agree with me is deluded.
Furthermore, there is nothing in this society that is preventing you from pursuing your chosen mode of life: if you are a Christian of whatever stipe, you can attend Mass, socialise with your fellow-believers, read and write whatever you like. Your freedom of conscience is enshrined in the Constitution.
People may simply need to accept that the cycle of History has turned in a direction they don't like. The critic could say Christians and Catholics had their time for centuries, now it's something else's turn. And as said before, there is no one preventing Christian worship.
Realism is needed.
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Post by kj on May 13, 2017 11:30:19 GMT
Well, Ireland is officially a Republic that promises freedom of conscience to all, so issues about state schools, businesses etc are in the public domain and are up for debate, I'm afraid. Freedom of conscience means both to freedom to reject and to accept religion, that is just the reality. The debates are ongoing and the pendulum will always swing one way or the other.
The core element of my point stands, though. There will always be freedom of worship, which is surely the key thing I would have thought.
As for Spencer et al, yes, they are big on social media, but I cannot take them that seriously intellectually. God help us if Milo Whatshisname is considered a serious thinker. My own experience with the Alt-Right is that there is a veneer of depth to them but you hit rockbottom very quickly and then the crude racism and tough-guy violence talk starts. They're not fit to lick the boots of someone like William F Buckley et al.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 13, 2017 11:41:27 GMT
I also admire William F. Buckley, very much, and especially his purging of anti-semitism from the American conservative movement. But I would also argue that Milo Yiannapoulous is a serious thinker. The fact that he goes in for pageantry doesn't detract from that...listen to him in any more serious interview. I don't agree with him about everything, but I think he's very deep.
I also think Richard Spencer is a coherent and deep thinker, though he's MUCH more sinister than Milo (who he doesn't like at all).
Also, I do think the internet is where it's happening now. So much of life happens online now. Even the question, "What are you going to do about it?", might be responded to by the contention that words are deeds. If Milo Yiannapoulous gets so many millions of hits online, it's changing the atmosphere and the tone of society, what can be said and what can't be said, it's moving the Overton window. It's a platitude that the way for the French Revolution was laid by the encyclopaediasts and philosophes. Whether or not you think Trump is a good thing, the Alt Right seems to have played a part in bringing him to power. Discourse matters. (Not that I'm discounting your question at all, which is a burning one.)
The definition of freedom of worship is the matter at stake-- whether it carries into the public square, including working life, or is a more or less private matter.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 13, 2017 11:49:09 GMT
I'm not claiming Milo is on a par with Michael Oakeshott or Robert Nozick or anyone like that. Or even with William Buckley, but William Buckley was a pretty unique case. But in general terms I do think he's pretty deep.
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Post by melancholicus on May 13, 2017 16:19:44 GMT
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and ask the members of the forum: what do you mean by 'racism'?
I'm know, I'm perfectly capable of picking up a dictionary, but I want to know precisely what YOU have in mind when YOU use the term.
I don't use it myself, since it is a Trotskyite neologism usually resorted to by the left to silence an interlocutor whose views they don't like, and thus end the discussion.
Over to y'all.
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