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Post by cato on Aug 18, 2020 21:46:48 GMT
Estimates vary but there will probably be one or two ordinations to the priesthood in Ireland this year. Presumably this is among the worst ever figures In Irish Church history. In contrast there have been 4 Episcopal consecrations. Too many chiefs and not enough Native Americans I fear.
The main Irish seminary is still headed by a man who chose to claim Jesus Christ was a racist in a homily that was displayed for several weeks on the Irish bishops website last Christmas. The said priest rather condescendingly contradicted later Maria Steens objections in a series of letters to the Irish Times. She was not a professional scripture scholar apparently. Funny he isn't either. He's a jumped up woke Canon lawyer. Yes. You read that correctly.
Clericalism is alive and well in the modern church. At least the clericalists of the old school understood and taught Catholic orthodoxy.
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Post by cato on Aug 19, 2020 20:12:21 GMT
Apparently more than one Irish man is being ordained this year. At least 4 are being ordained abroad . Two of them are members of the society of St Pius X and the other two are Oratorian Fathers. Both organisations are on the conservative traditionalist fringe. A similar pattern has emerged over several years in France with a high proportion of a diminishing number, of new priests being liturgicallly and doctrinally traditionalist.
I usually regard myself as pretty unshockable by the antics of public figures but the decision of the archbishop of Armagh and the heads of the three main protestant churches today to ask worshippers to wear face masks even while socially distancing and using sanitisers etc is ridiculous. The state do not require this measure and it is pandering to a desire to be seen to be doing something.
I do wear a mask and find it irksome and uncomfortable . I am immensely disapointed the church is urging us to exceed an already cautious state imposed practice. You would almost think some one some where wants to make Mass going as burdensome and difficult as possible. If mass going is medically dangerous we shouldn't be there in the first place.
This will only further annoy those who have previously accused the church of neglecting her pastoral and sacramental mission during this crisis . It will not appease those in our society who despise Christianity.
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Post by Maryb on Aug 19, 2020 22:34:07 GMT
i am glad the Bishops urged massgoers to wear masks. The church is an enclosed space in which people congregate for at least 45 minutes and speak responses aloud which would cause a lot of droplets in the air, this is despite my local church ensuring the appropriate distance between people. I also find the masks uncomfortable and usually have a chest blockage after using them. However if wearing them in church increases safety and makes it safer to attend Mass it is worth it.
Masks are particularly needed on buses and churches because of being in them for a prolonged time eg more than 15 minutes.
In my opinion they should be compulsory at Mass and churches should have been on the Government list with shops etc.
I know two people who died from covid 19, my adult son was very ill with it and another relative of mine was also very sick with it.
It is a horrible virus and we all need to be very vigilant until there is a vaccine, both to save lives and get people back to work so that they can look after their families. If wearing a mask helps this in any way, they are worth wearing.
It is hard living with the restrictions for everyone, I miss close contact with my family who now have their own homes - simple things like being able to give them a hug.
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Post by cato on Aug 20, 2020 10:05:17 GMT
i am glad the Bishops urged massgoers to wear masks. The church is an enclosed space in which people congregate for at least 45 minutes and speak responses aloud which would cause a lot of droplets in the air, this is despite my local church ensuring the appropriate distance between people. I also find the masks uncomfortable and usually have a chest blockage after using them. However if wearing them in church increases safety and makes it safer to attend Mass it is worth it. Masks are particularly needed on buses and churches because of being in them for a prolonged time eg more than 15 minutes. In my opinion they should be compulsory at Mass and churches should have been on the Government list with shops etc. I know two people who died from covid 19, my adult son was very ill with it and another relative of mine was also very sick with it. It is a horrible virus and we all need to be very vigilant until there is a vaccine, both to save lives and get people back to work so that they can look after their families. If wearing a mask helps this in any way, they are worth wearing. It is hard living with the restrictions for everyone, I miss close contact with my family who now have their own homes - simple things like being able to give them a hug. It is strange a government that has little regard for religious believers didn't insist on mask wearing? After all they did insist on closing churches completely for several months . Even the four religious leaders in their statement recommend people wear masks. They don't insist on it. I understand there is no current obligation to attend mass on holy days. Perhaps the bishops should insist people in high risk categories do not attend? This would perhaps annoy some but we have an obligation not to endanger ourselves or others . I have mentioned to a couple of priests about not giving out communion too. This was common practice for centuries and would remove a major point of possible contagion. The recent cases of Covid Mary are infecting low risk groups and our media is largely ignoring the low death rate and low ICU admission rate of the present wave. This is what caused the panic in March which thankfully did not materialise. Varadkars predicted 80,000 deaths did not materialise . That's something to be grateful for. It is hard to manage this insidious disease but societies have survived intact in the past when faced with similar outbreaks. We will eventually get over this. What is largely missing from our current public discussion is the huge economic damage caused which will affect everyone soon. Many of those urging bans and closures may soon start blaming governments when cuts start being implemented and hardship remerges. Closing down medical services for all the non Covid sick will also be an immense burden on people's lives and health. Many may die from this extreme measure. We can all agree on protecting vulnerable groups but we cannot simply turn the world off every time we face an unknown disease. We need a working society to provide the income to pay for health care. Hopefully we will see a time soon when normality can return and when we can meet family again. Little things we took for granted this time last year are so precious. |
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Post by hilary on Aug 20, 2020 16:41:58 GMT
The Church seems to be very accepting of the official Covid narrative as dispensed by RTE. It seems strange when the hierarchy are well aware of the stances the mainstream media took on the various social issues in recent years, that they don't question it, publicly anyway.
Early on in the crisis the advice from the scientists was that the public shouldn't wear masks and that changed when more masks became available. You'd think that would make people suspicious.
I don't remember ever seeing a Minister of the Eucharist sneezing while giving out communion and even if they did, who sneezes and doesn't try to cover it with tissue, hand or elbow?
A breathing expert was on RTE at the weekend and he was extolling the virtues of nose-breathing. He mentioned that the nasal passages contain filters which can filter dust, particles and viruses. Presumably our noses filter in and out.
This makes sense to me and probably explains why young people aren't as badly affected by it. God created us well, didn't He?
I think it's good to let the air at your face and mouth and not to have bacteria building up in a soggy mask which you then have to handle. I've also heard that fibres from synthetic masks can affect the lungs.
Dave Cullen on Computing Forever had a great interview with Dr Marcus de Brun yesterday and there was a teacher on with Grand Torino last night who expressed so well her fears for children.
I'm not wearing a mask. I printed off a one line declaration saying I have a 'reasonable excuse' but haven't needed it yet.
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Post by hilary on Aug 20, 2020 16:52:47 GMT
Also, there should be a variety of opinions and the Church leaders could notice the absence of debate and encourage it.
There is definitely a conversation to be had about conflicts of interest and the suspicion is there that pharmaceutical companies want to promote a vaccine.
I think the church will have to speak out and give guidance on this. Already Stephen Donnelly is reported as having said that the flu vaccine should be mandatory for people working in nursing homes. A lot of these people will feel they don't have any choice but to submit.
It's a slippery slope then.
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Post by MaryB on Aug 20, 2020 20:59:25 GMT
It is the law to wear a face mask in shoos buses etc now, I think law should have been extended to churches for our protection. It should not have been left as advice from the bishops. Hilary you say you will not wear one as you have a reasonable excuse. A reasonable excuse is not enough, it has to be a serious excuse, a medical/mental health problem.
I would like to know on what scientific or other basis people who object to mask wearing base their beliefs. I agree that at the beginning mask wearing was not seen as essential. However this is a new virus and there was a change of advice based on new knowledge gleaned from treating the virus. I am no lover of our Government or an excess of laws, but I feel at some level in a crisis such as this that we need to trust authority.
Also if businesses are to re-open and people are to return to work, there would be a need to wear masks as it is would be difficult to keep social distance in all circumstances.
At present I avoid shops where a large proportion of customers refuse to wear masks or where there is no encouragement by the owner for customers to wear masks.
I also would avoid sitting near anyone on the bus or in church not wearing a mask, to be fair there is 100% compliance on the buses that I use. There is also 100% compliance in my parish church and the priest has an excellent system in place for social distance and hand hygiene.
That is all I can do to protect myself and then get on with my life as best I can in these difficult times.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 21, 2020 10:25:22 GMT
At this stage I am simply going on my own experience. Despite the massive worldwide upheaval, I don't know a single person who has become seriously ill with Covid-- not even a distant acquaintance. Fair enough, preventative measures were taken, but if the virus was so deadly surely even the most stringent measures couldn't have been so effective? And we all know how symbolic such measures have been. Before mask-wearing, it was usual for people to squeeze past you in the supermarket aisle, etc,, all social distancing guidelines to the contrary.
I wear a mask where required, etc., But it all seems like play-acting to me by now.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 21, 2020 12:19:22 GMT
At this stage I am simply going on my own experience. Despite the massive worldwide upheaval, I don't know a single person who has become seriously ill with Covid-- not even a distant acquaintance. Fair enough, preventative measures were taken, but if the virus was so deadly surely even the most stringent measures couldn't have been so effective? And we all know how symbolic such measures have been. Before mask-wearing, it was usual for people to squeeze past you in the supermarket aisle, etc,, all social distancing guidelines to the contrary. I wear a mask where required, etc., But it all seems like play-acting to me by now. Considering that the measures are fairly unprecedented,at least on such a universal scale, there's no harm in being that little bit objective. Like murder-of-Princess-Diana theories,it's probably a borders a bit on the impossible if we try to see a creator or a faceless design in the virus,but there's no doubt that,like polluted seas and shrinking forests,it can definitely become fodder in the hands of globalists and pan-national organisations. I just read a 2018 quote from Bill Gates today- "the world needs to prepare for pandemics in the same way it prepares for war", apparently citing a pandemic as the world's greatest danger after climate change and nuclear weapons. I also learnt today that one building used as an intensive care unit during Wuhan's highest spike was previously a hospital originally founded and previously belonging to the Columban Missionary Sisters, showing that even the Catholic Church,indeed the Irish Catholic Church,was an original multinational philanthropist,so that while no-one could fault any good intention towards global healing by Mr Gates,UN,WHO,or whoever is influencing government and the rest of us, we know that the ethics or principals can often become the opposite to that of the conservative. While a poem about 'Lockdown' by a young Dublin Capuchin has reportedly been popular on the internet this year, perhaps Pope Francis' extention of the House of Loreto Jubilee might be the best praying focal point,as patroness of flight-travel, whose return would be for many the consummation of a return to normality. The previously pro-gay rights Church of England chaplain Gavin Ashenden has mentioned Apparitions,Padre Pio and Fatima-type spirituality as contributing to his conversion to Catholicism "my confidence grew that Mary was not only real but also that she was constantly engaging in the Church's struggle with the world...I began to pray the Rosary." Not the usual stereotype of the pragmatic Anglican clergy convert,or maybe his time as Royal chaplain has caused him to reflect much on the possibilities of the role of a Queen. |
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Post by cato on Aug 21, 2020 18:22:57 GMT
Also, there should be a variety of opinions and the Church leaders could notice the absence of debate and encourage it. There is definitely a conversation to be had about conflicts of interest and the suspicion is there that pharmaceutical companies want to promote a vaccine. I think the church will have to speak out and give guidance on this. Already Stephen Donnelly is reported as having said that the flu vaccine should be mandatory for people working in nursing homes. A lot of these people will feel they don't have any choice but to submit. It's a slippery slope then. Hilary the chances of our bishops encouraging people to start a debate are precisely zero. A priest I know said the real reason for this rather meaningless plea on mask wearing was "insurance". This is not simply a cynical quip. Insurance advisors got the bishops to set up a fund to pay for child abuse victims in the 1990s. It's not impossible our ecumenical church leaders are covering themselves against any possible claims that someone catches Covid at church. |
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Post by MaryB on Aug 21, 2020 21:40:36 GMT
i know of one person, my daughter’s father in law who died of Covid and he could not have a proper funeral or a requiem mass. His body was wrapped when he died and placed straight into a coffin, his wedding ring was not allowed to be retrieved, his death and burial caused all the family including myself a lot of pain. Only his two sons and one other relative could attend the funeral My adult son also got it and was very very ill, thank God he has recovered. One other relative, before that in good health and ony 50 years old got it and died and was buried buried without a requiem mass or being prepared for burial in the customary manner and another relative caught it and was very ill but has recovered from it.
So in my wider family, that is not bigger than normal, 2 people died of Covid and 2 people were very ill with it.
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Post by hilary on Aug 21, 2020 23:24:08 GMT
Hilary the chances of our bishops encouraging people to start a debate are precisely zero.
[br
I had in mind someone who would be willing to reason in public. I'm sure we all know priests whose sermons you'd love to be heard by the general public. I know a lot of people are very uninterested in religion but there are priests who are gifted communicators on down to earth practical matters. I know getting a platform where they would be treated with respect might be a challenge. But I'm sure there are priests who are in and out of hospitals and whose jobs aren't at stake if they speak out. This might be a time when people might be receptive to it
]A priest I know said the real reason for this rather meaningless plea on mask wearing was "insurance". This is not simply a cynical quip. Insurance advisors got the bishops to set up a fund to pay for child abuse victims in the 1990s. It's not impossible our ecumenical church leaders are covering themselves against any possible claims that someone catches Covid at church.
[/quote]
I'm sure people are thinking about insurance but I think it would be difficult to prove liability for infection with Covid and I wonder about the defence lawyers employed by the church. Maybe they are difficult clients though, unwilling to take advice and fight cases.
The collections are probably down a bit..
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Post by hilary on Aug 21, 2020 23:42:21 GMT
i know of one person, my daughter’s father in law who died of Covid and he could not have a proper funeral or a requiem mass. His body was wrapped when he died and placed straight into a coffin, his wedding ring was not allowed to be retrieved, his death and burial caused all the family including myself a lot of pain. Only his two sons and one other relative could attend the funeral My adult son also got it and was very very ill, thank God he has recovered. One other relative, before that in good health and ony 50 years old got it and died and was buried buried without a requiem mass or being prepared for burial in the customary manner and another relative caught it and was very ill but has recovered from it. So in my wider family, that is not bigger than normal, 2 people died of Covid and 2 people were very ill with it. Mary - firstly I'm sorry about your relation who died - it must have been awful not to have been able to be with him. A close family member of mine died in November and I feel relieved that we didn't have to go through this now. But I see it from a different perspective. I think the elderly haven't been treated with the respect that is usual in Ireland and the whole way of talking about Covid is wrong. People are being blamed almost for getting sick and spreading it and putting the front line workers under pressure. I wouldn't want to go near a hospital now. I don't trust the tests - some people say it's not possible to be sure what the test results mean. Some died with Covid more than of Covid. Some sick people were moved into nursing homes and spread the infection. The story of the Oireachtas golf dinner in Galway says to me that those people are not worried about catching Covid and makes me even more convinced it's a plandemic. |
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Post by Maryb on Aug 22, 2020 10:28:14 GMT
Hilary thank you for your expressions of sympathy. I would not be too worried about hospitals, I have been in hospital twice since early June, the second time to have needed surgery as a result of an emergency admission. I have had 3 COVID tests as a result all clear thank God. The hospitals had strict protocols in place and I felt safe, as did the other patients.
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Post by Maryb on Aug 22, 2020 10:31:56 GMT
I agree with you a out the nursing home situation. It was a disgrace the way the elderly were put into nursing homes with the illness and the way the elderly have been treated.
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