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Post by hilary on Aug 22, 2020 11:54:44 GMT
Hilary thank you for your expressions of sympathy. I would not be too worried about hospitals, I have been in hospital twice since early June, the second time to have needed surgery as a result of an emergency admission. I have had 3 COVID tests as a result all clear thank God. The hospitals had strict protocols in place and I felt safe, as did the other patients. Three tests! Were they very invasive? I've heard that they have to go far up into the nose. That makes me nervous and especially the thought of children being subjected to it. A saliva test should be possible, if the virus is so contagious by saliva. Speaking of children - did you see where a full planeload of people had to disembark because a 2 year old wouldn't put on a mask?! It's not the virus I'd be afraid of in hospital. I'm afraid that we're not getting the full facts and that medical staff have been silenced and forbidden from speaking out publicly against the policies. They must be under huge pressure. Good though that you had a good experience and I know there are great people in the health service. I hate the idea that they are being abused though and their jobs can be given away if they disagree and I think we have to defend them. I hope I'm wrong about this but I don't think I am. I wonder too whether your surgery might have been necessitated by the lockdown. Anyway hope you've made a good recovery.
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Post by cato on Aug 22, 2020 12:22:36 GMT
Although the Golfgate debacle shows how out of touch many of our public representatives are the public outrage over this stands in stark contrast to the lack of any marches, media outrage or any resignations when it came to the biggest scandal of the Covid outbreak - the disgraceful way people in nursing homes were treated and the unnecessary deaths caused by official policy.
Let it be recalled the wonderful Mr Varadkar criticised Cork city council for cancelling the St Patrick's day parade and urged other local authorities to ignore their example. This was a couple of weeks prior to his u turn on this issue. Nursing homes banned visitors prior to any government guidance. Incredibly government then overturned this policy before eventually reinstating this vital measure. We have short memories.
We have a strange national reaction to huge scandals . We usually shrug our shoulders and turn the channel or page. In contrast we whip ourselves into a frenzy over relatively small events of public stupidity or wrongdoing.
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Post by cato on Aug 22, 2020 12:40:23 GMT
Hilary the chances of our bishops encouraging people to start a debate are precisely zero. [br I had in mind someone who would be willing to reason in public. I'm sure we all know priests whose sermons you'd love to be heard by the general public. I know a lot of people are very uninterested in religion but there are priests who are gifted communicators on down to earth practical matters. I know getting a platform where they would be treated with respect might be a challenge. But I'm sure there are priests who are in and out of hospitals and whose jobs aren't at stake if they speak out. This might be a time when people might be receptive to it ]A priest I know said the real reason for this rather meaningless plea on mask wearing was "insurance". This is not simply a cynical quip. Insurance advisors got the bishops to set up a fund to pay for child abuse victims in the 1990s. It's not impossible our ecumenical church leaders are covering themselves against any possible claims that someone catches Covid at church. I'm sure people are thinking about insurance but I think it would be difficult to prove liability for infection with Covid and I wonder about the defence lawyers employed by the church. Maybe they are difficult clients though, unwilling to take advice and fight cases. The collections are probably down a bit.. [/quote] David Quinn has been questioning almost single handled many aspects of government policy on Covid using his Sunday Times platform and daily on his Twitter account. He gets a lot of nasty abuse for daring to query the official advice. During the daily press conferences held during the Lockdown he was often the only journalist in the room to ask searching questions. He does radio interviews too but one man can only do so much. We need more articulate catholic lay spokespeople in the media. This should be a major priority for the Irish church. Most orthodox clergy fear the media and many of those who do appear on the media are distinctly heterodox unfortunately. Anecdotally I believe the church will have a major financial crisis this year in addition to a large decrease in attendees. Funds for many churches have shrunk enormously. Church wealth is often in the form of fixed assets like buildings and land which are of little use short term. Many dioceses are now cutting clergy salaries and laying off lay staff. It needed this crisis like a hole in the head. Some churches may never reopen or the process of drastic amalgamation may have to be speeded up .
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Post by Maryb on Aug 23, 2020 0:24:03 GMT
Hilary, my survery had nothing to do with Covid. The Covid test is horrible, invasive and very uncomfortable. I have a terror of injections and drips but I would rather u dergo these than have the Covid test. I read online yesterday that they hope to have a less invasive test such as a saliva test soon.
I agree with Cato that we need articulate Catholic lay spokespersons in the media. Much of the media commentary needing a Catholic input falls within the scope of the laiety.
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Post by Maryb on Aug 23, 2020 0:25:58 GMT
Sorry should be surgery. Not survey!
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Post by cato on Aug 27, 2020 12:54:15 GMT
Back to 2020 ordinations. The Irish Jesuits ordained an SJ in Gardiner St Church recently who by his Twitter tweets is probably on the opposite side of the spectrum to the 4 Traddy clergy mentioned in the first few posts. Of 6 clergy ordained 5 occupy very distinctive doctrinal positions.
It's strange the Irish church communications office cannot provide in one place a list of new Irish clergy. I wonder what they actually do as I rarely see or hear of them in the wider media.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 27, 2020 14:28:52 GMT
I wrote an article for the Catholic Voice about vocations last year. Researching it, I found it extraordinarily difficult to find current statistics.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 29, 2020 9:26:44 GMT
I agree with you a out the nursing home situation. It was a disgrace the way the elderly were put into nursing homes with the illness and the way the elderly have been treated. Nice to note the ladies of the forum saying a lot lately. If anyone has the fortune of attending the extraordinary form for today's feast, Beheading of John the Baptist, they'll probably notice also a commemoration of a married martyr,St Sabina,giving the liturgy both the best and worst of women in early times;I suppose that can be coupled with Francis' touching-enough visit to the tomb of Monica this week. I'd be curious to know what sort of pandemic-proof laying on of hands they might do at the Jesuit or Oratorian ordinations Mr Cato has mentioned?, but,with religious orders in mind,I was introduced to another anti-pandemic sacramental this week (printable from internet),the Holy Name emblem of St Bernadine of Siena which contains,besides the famous monogram, Trinitarian, Marian and Josephine symbols. "Preaching our glorious St Bernadine in the city of Ferrara, assaulted by a fierce plague, exhorted everyone to the devotion and veneration of the Most Holy Name and all those citizens lit themselves up with such a beautiful devotion that they placed the Holy Name on the doors of their homes",says St Leonard of Port Maurice,nearly two centuries later. (According to the info) I happened recently to be revisiting a booklet published by the parish that my mother grew up and married in,printed in the 1990s,which mentioned the Dominican tradition of Holy Name devotion,I'm assuming the movement referred to is distinct from the men's Dominican Holy Name Society: "a forgotten but still flourishing institution of yesteryear is the White Star League. This institution was set up to promote purity in language and was spearheaded in Cabra West for many years by the saintly Sr Mary Oliver. She was a simple person without piousity and was very holy. She was always making up jokes and used to laugh heartily at telling them. A great scholar,she loved the Irish language and anything to do with it. She taught in the infant school and is best remembered by generations of Cabra children for their great sense of humour" cf the west's awake,b.neary It took me a while to distinguish between her promoting "purity of language" and loving "the Irish language", but the ambiguous paragraph seemed to be talking about two distinct things.
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Post by hilary on Aug 29, 2020 19:47:37 GMT
Will holy water ever come back to the church porches I wonder? I don't remember it ever being removed for hygiene reasons but maybe others do. It seems to me that it will be hard for some people to see it as safe after this. But maybe there'll be a revolt against the whole cleaning thing and germs will become fashionable. Surely we could have holy water dispensers? I wonder do the traditional (traddys?) churches have holy water.
It's not that long ago that Irish people didn't take their shoes off when they came into the house and I know it's not everyone who does it now. I think it would have been considered rude to expect a visitor to take their shoes off coming into your house. The visitor would (or should) have been welcomed and the welcome would reflect a Christian welcome. All would be welcome in God's house, the church. I find myself thinking about this when I pass the hand sanitizer in the church porch. I never use it but I'm careful not to touch anything either. It doesn't seem right to me - a bit unnecessary, disrespectful, distracting and unwelcoming.
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Post by MaryB on Aug 30, 2020 1:02:38 GMT
Holy Water in church porches may come back whenever we get back to some kind of normality, I do not see why not. I hope shaking hands at mass at the sign of peace never comes back. I never liked it. We have hand sanitizers in our church for years long before Covid 19. At present I carry my own sanitizer with me always even to the church. I also bring a small bottle of holy water to mass with me for use on entering the church.
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Post by assisi on Aug 30, 2020 13:25:00 GMT
Holy Water in church porches may come back whenever we get back to some kind of normality, I do not see why not. I hope shaking hands at mass at the sign of peace never comes back. I never liked it. We have hand sanitizers in our church for years long before Covid 19. At present I carry my own sanitizer with me always even to the church. I also bring a small bottle of holy water to mass with me for use on entering the church. I've went to put my finger in the font in the way in to church several times now as a natural reflex only to find the font dry. It will definitely come back - after all you won't have to use it if you don't want to. I do not really miss the handshakes either. If that didn't come back I would be fine with that.
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Post by cato on Sept 3, 2020 11:24:10 GMT
I noticed that even with a cap of 50 attendees few if any extra masses are being held. In a big urban parish that implies only 200 or so parishioners may be attending mass on Sunday now. Capping the numbers like this reminded me of the registration of catholic clergy under the penal laws. Restrict access to the sacraments. I am not implying Covid is a tool of a new penal law state but the enormous upheaval of 2020 is spilling into all aspects of life and changing things dramatically in ways unimaginable this time last year.
A clergy man I know who has a keen interest in these things predicts Covid will speed up the decline in Church attendance by at least 5 years. I think he's being optimistic.
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Post by hilary on Sept 3, 2020 22:52:53 GMT
I was wondering if the bishops were being overly cooperative and enthusiastic about compliance with the Covid laws. I don't think churches are mentioned in the Covid laws specifically but insurance is probably on their minds. Can the bishops rely on the government data and give a dispensation from Sunday mass to the people for an indefinite period?
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Post by cato on Sept 4, 2020 10:06:16 GMT
I was wondering if the bishops were being overly cooperative and enthusiastic about compliance with the Covid laws. I don't think churches are mentioned in the Covid laws specifically but insurance is probably on their minds. Can the bishops rely on the government data and give a dispensation from Sunday mass to the people for an indefinite period? They just did. In canon law they can dispense for a just reason and Covid would appear to be a just reason. The problem for the church and indeed the wider society is we have spent several months frightening people especially the over 70s that some of them may never come back to church or go out and spend money on local services. As well as a mental toll brought about by social isolation there are the jobs of those being lost on a daily basis due to a move to on line shopping or just not leaving the house. Killing the virus might involve killing a lot of society too. I am reminded of the the remark of the American army officer in Vietnam in the 1960s who is reported to have said that "in order to save a village from the communists we destroyed it." A large percentage of clergy are in the at risk group due to age factors and the number of young clergy is at an all time low which may also explain the bishops caution in this crisis.
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Post by cato on Sept 20, 2020 19:34:33 GMT
David Quinn's Iona Institute has commissioned research indicating 4% of regular pre Covid mass goers will not return to regular mass. 19% are unsure if they will. Potentially this means almost one in four mass goers may opt out in the space of under a year. Quinn reckons this will speed up the mass decline by about 5 years.
Overall 27% of Catholics were attending mass on a regular basis pre Covid, high by European standards but terrible by mid 20th century Irish standards.
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