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Post by Séamus on Dec 29, 2020 11:57:36 GMT
I'm interested in this Stephen. I'm sure there are quite a few priests and mass-goers who aren't happy with the way things are at the moment and they are having to be very diplomatic and tread carefully. I wonder if priests get heard in dioceses. I suppose many would be aiming for unity and co-operation and obedience to the hierarchy and Vatican and haven't really had to speak up until now. Hopefully we'll hear a few more soon! There is a Definitively a minority of People and Priests that have dug in for the winter (this probably isn't the best saying as these people are continuously moving the boundaries and giving ground.) What I have heard from a large amount of new people coming to the tradition is they have patiently being going to New Mass and putting up with the post councillor spirit but Covid broke the camel's back. There are a variety of reasons such as communion on the tongue being banned, Mass being cancelled, tickets for Mass, Facemasks, Sacramentally abandoned and list goes on. Time will only tell, what Covids affect will be on the Church. There's been a huge increase in the numbers attending the chaplaincy on the other side of the world also,but the situation as a whole may contain other elements;some SSPX chapels did indeed close in obedience to government regulations despite not having to contend with local bishops too,while time can only tell whether people refusing communion on the hand will have preference for the traditional liturgy in the long term. St Thomas Becket's feast today is a good focal point when considering the monkey-puzzle of church freedom and health regulations, especially as he was cut down trying to conduct public worship. The overall worldwide trends can almost tempt one to envision CSLewis' Wither,Straik and Filostrato, bloodied and undressed, worshipping a talking spikey-headed virus that orders still more closures. I've been reading the life of (now Bl) Elizabeth Canori Mora,who today would be considered as coming from a failed marriage. Like yesterday's Holy Innocents feast she might be another opportunity to highlight the spiritual nature of the lay life,even if removed from sacrament. Like some of her visions (the Magi actually appeared to her as kings) there's a touch of liturgical poetry when celebrating the day of the Innocents: "avenge O Lord the blood of Thy saints which was shed upon the earth" (62 missal) "the children sing praise to God,in death they preach what their young mouths could not utter"(ordinary form liturgy)- but I always remember that little scene in Zeffirelli's Jesus of Nazareth where we see a mother or two, mourning in daze and confusion,who, despite a certain amount of hardening in an era where petty kings did these things, experienced the martyrdom in it's awfulness without perhaps feeling any sense or purpose. The sight of that groaning mother might be worth meditation for those who,like her two year old or St Thomas of Canterbury a millennium later, currently feel the government's (or global advisory body's) blade cutting through their skull.
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Post by Stephen on Dec 29, 2020 12:10:48 GMT
There is a Definitively a minority of People and Priests that have dug in for the winter (this probably isn't the best saying as these people are continuously moving the boundaries and giving ground.) What I have heard from a large amount of new people coming to the tradition is they have patiently being going to New Mass and putting up with the post councillor spirit but Covid broke the camel's back. There are a variety of reasons such as communion on the tongue being banned, Mass being cancelled, tickets for Mass, Facemasks, Sacramentally abandoned and list goes on. Time will only tell, what Covids affect will be on the Church. There's been a huge increase in the numbers attending the chaplaincy on the other side of the world also,but the situation as a whole may contain other elements;some SSPX chapels did indeed close in obedience to government regulations despite not having to contend with local bishops too,while time can only tell whether people refusing communion on the hand will have preference for the traditional liturgy in the long term. St Thomas Becket's feast today is a good focal point when considering the monkey-puzzle of church freedom and health regulations, especially as he was cut down trying to conduct public worship. The overall worldwide trends can almost tempt one to envision CSLewis' Wither,Straik and Filostrato, bloodied and undressed, worshipping a talking spikey-headed virus that orders still more closures. I've been reading the life of (now Bl) Elizabeth Canori Mora,who today would be considered as coming from a failed marriage. Like yesterday's Holy Innocents feast she might be another opportunity to highlight the spiritual nature of the lay life,even if removed from sacrament. Like some of her visions (the Magi actually appeared to her as kings) there's a touch of liturgical poetry when celebrating the day of the Innocents: "avenge O Lord the blood of Thy saints which was shed upon the earth" (62 missal) "the children sing praise to God,in death they preach what their young mouths could not utter"(ordinary form liturgy)- but I always remember that little scene in Zeffirelli's Jesus of Nazareth where we see a mother or two, mourning in daze and confusion,who, despite a certain amount of hardening in an era where petty kings did these things, experienced the martyrdom in it's awfulness without perhaps feeling any sense or purpose. The sight of that groaning mother might be worth meditation for those who,like her two year old or St Thomas of Canterbury a millennium later, currently feel the government's (or global advisory body's) blade cutting through their skull. I agree traditional orders also took a long term outlook rather than a short term stand on the closure. I suppose the caveat is that most traditional apostolates continued to say Mass for the congregation in some capacity.The doors being left open, outside masses or invitations. Who are the Chaplaincy?
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Post by hilary on Dec 29, 2020 14:48:26 GMT
I was reading the guidelines on the Dublin Diocese website this morning and they seem to be more stringent than the Government's own guidelines. In particular the guidance for cantors in the loft /organ gallery - I gave up reading there as it seemed just too much. Anyway I've just heard we have a new Archbishop of Dublin. www.irishcatholic.com/dermot-farrell-appointed-archbishop-of-dublin/
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Post by cato on Dec 29, 2020 15:34:05 GMT
I agree traditional orders also took a long term outlook rather than a short term stand on the closure. I suppose the caveat is that most traditional apostolates continued to say Mass for the congregation in some capacity.The doors being left open, outside masses or invitations.
Who are the Chaplaincy?[/quote]
As far as I am aware all parish priests ( bar the ACP modernist types) continue to offer mass but in private. I personal know a priest who recently had a recorded protest outside his church. The protesters prayed the rosary with their backs to the Mass which was being celebrated inside the church and then refused to come in to pray when he opened the doors after mass.
This priest is probably one of the most orthodox clergy in Ireland and yet the protesters treated him with disregard and sullen hostility. This attitude is barely Christian and coming during the Christmas period is profoundly sad. This is what leads to schism and worse.
I sympathise with the protesters but often the parish clergy are simply carrying out orders and lest we forget they do take public vows of obedience to their superiors.
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Post by cato on Dec 29, 2020 16:03:35 GMT
I was in the country for a few days during the period when we could move around legally around Christmas time. I met 2 or 3 clergy and was very struck by the hyper conservative cautious approach to Covid they were adopting. It suprised me because normally they tend to be more on the traditional orthodox wing. This is mere personal anecdote but I have heard very few clergy object to the states Covid policy in public either . The government's Covid policy is very popular lest we forget. Many people who have secure jobs/pensions are loud supporters of a policy which to date costs them very little bar the right to travel and dine out.
I believe the Society of Pius X were being a little more adventurous initially but they are also subject to the same laws and regulations around insurance for example. An insurance company could potentially pull cover if a church choose to ignore public health regulations. They have the good sense not to publically advertise any flexibility they may be considering.
Unless you have widespread civil disobedience from clergy (and this is very unlikely) the best approach is that of Declan Ganley who is taking a High court challenge to the current restrictions. Ireland has been very harsh in restricting public religious worship , almost alone in Europe we ban public worship. Mass has been banned regularly in Lifford and Dundalk in 2020 but was legal, most of the time, in Strabane and Newry. Some cross border dioceses had areas where mass was banned and other areas where it was legal.
It is a cliche to blame our bishops but as a collective they have objectively been much less proactive in defending the rights of the laity to the Eucharist than their English or French counterparts. Normally we in Ireland recoil in horror when we deviate from the European norm. On this issue we have been very bad Europeans indeed.
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Post by hilary on Dec 29, 2020 19:12:45 GMT
An insurance company could potentially pull cover if a church choose to ignore public health regulations. Insurance companies would probably give cover for an extra premium. If it was a matter of a few extra euro people might be happy to donate. Tracing a positive case of Covid to a particular church or mass would be tricky I'd say. I was in a church the other day where they had an air purifying system going. The company literature on display said it guaranteed 100% of airborne viruses, germs etc would be killed.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 29, 2020 22:21:46 GMT
Normally we in Ireland recoil in horror when we deviate from the European norm. On this issue we have been very bad Europeans indeed. Ha! Great point.
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Post by Séamus on Dec 30, 2020 7:31:10 GMT
There's been a huge increase in the numbers attending the chaplaincy on the other side of the world also,but the situation as a whole may contain other elements;some SSPX chapels did indeed close in obedience to government regulations despite not having to contend with local bishops too,while time can only tell whether people refusing communion on the hand will have preference for the traditional liturgy in the long term. St Thomas Becket's feast today is a good focal point when considering the monkey-puzzle of church freedom and health regulations, especially as he was cut down trying to conduct public worship. The overall worldwide trends can almost tempt one to envision CSLewis' Wither,Straik and Filostrato, bloodied and undressed, worshipping a talking spikey-headed virus that orders still more closures. I've been reading the life of (now Bl) Elizabeth Canori Mora,who today would be considered as coming from a failed marriage. Like yesterday's Holy Innocents feast she might be another opportunity to highlight the spiritual nature of the lay life,even if removed from sacrament. Like some of her visions (the Magi actually appeared to her as kings) there's a touch of liturgical poetry when celebrating the day of the Innocents: "avenge O Lord the blood of Thy saints which was shed upon the earth" (62 missal) "the children sing praise to God,in death they preach what their young mouths could not utter"(ordinary form liturgy)- but I always remember that little scene in Zeffirelli's Jesus of Nazareth where we see a mother or two, mourning in daze and confusion,who, despite a certain amount of hardening in an era where petty kings did these things, experienced the martyrdom in it's awfulness without perhaps feeling any sense or purpose. The sight of that groaning mother might be worth meditation for those who,like her two year old or St Thomas of Canterbury a millennium later, currently feel the government's (or global advisory body's) blade cutting through their skull. I agree traditional orders also took a long term outlook rather than a short term stand on the closure. I suppose the caveat is that most traditional apostolates continued to say Mass for the congregation in some capacity.The doors being left open, outside masses or invitations. Who are the Chaplaincy? A non-religious-order traditional mass chaplaincy set up by a diocese. The one I'm thinking of in particular has gone from roughly -300 a year ago to 500+ currently.
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Post by cato on Jan 23, 2021 16:37:07 GMT
New Zealand has been open for more of the last year than we in Ireland have been in regard to public masses. Although literally a world apart both island nations are rich , multi ethnic and hyper uber progressive. Much of what passes for Christan life is strongly liberal too.
Catholic mass attendance there slumped by 30-50% even after restrictions were lifted.
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Post by Séamus on Jan 24, 2021 9:14:51 GMT
New Zealand has been open for more of the last year than we in Ireland have been in regard to public masses. Although literally a world apart both island nations are rich , multi ethnic and hyper uber progressive. Much of what passes for Christan life is strongly liberal too. Catholic mass attendance there slumped by 30-50% even after restrictions were lifted. At one stage Auckland was re-locked down at the drop of a hat over a few cases,which shows just how fragile freedom has become. Ann Widdecombe at her snigger-inducing best last week: "I know what is involved in having an injection. You roll up your sleeve and the health practitioner inserts a needle in your arm. So what on earth is the point of tv news channels showing us endless shots of this process?...it is vacuous and patronizing and suggests that the viewers are morons". Considering also the attacks from some circles on broadcasts of the Angelus, Christmas cards from relations,when they finally arrived during January,that had the attached AnPost Christmas issue depicting an angel flying over Bethlehem were far from unwelcome. Being an anniversary year for Raphael Sanzio ties in also- not comparing his masterpieces to a postage stamp,however nice, but his angels are often of interest,sometimes typically renaissance humanistic; sometimes among the most 'spiritual' ever painted (the angels of cloud in Virgin abd Child Appearing to Ss John the Baptist,Jerome,Francis). The word is often misused in pop music,but occasionally a song will serve as a modern Raphael and give an ethereal sound which seems to do Angels some type of service(Clannad's Angel and the Soldier theme perhaps). I only learned recently that one such song that still gets some airplay in Australia since the 80s is by a once local Australian band, despite the accent sounding pretty British, now lost in the mist of time. Send Me An Angel was apparently the background to Nicole Kidman's first major role as a teenage actress (and did make the US charts). (They were called Real Life,by the way.)
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