|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 19, 2021 18:22:56 GMT
Direct question, Antaine. Why do you care about race? Why does it matter what colour anybody's skin is? Without reference to the left or anybody else, why do you yourself care? Lets just take an extreme hypothetical situation for a moment, to see if it can help out in this debate. Lets say that the 6 or 7 million people currently resident in the whole island of Ireland were taken out of Ireland and resettled elsewhere in all parts of the world. Then lets say that 4 million Pakistanis, 1 million Nigerians, 1 million Afghans and 1 million Brazilians were brought into Ireland and resettled there. Technically and legally they would be Irish and would fulfil your criteria as Irish and any culture that evolved would be Irish. How would you view that? I would be aghast at that and would consider the nation to have died, at least at home. The continuity would have been broken. I would feel exactly the same if all the replacements were from Western Europe. In this strange hypothetical situation, if the newcomers decided to practice or reconstruct the culture they had usurped, perhaps one could say Irishness had survived in Ireland.
|
|
|
Post by assisi on Sept 19, 2021 18:36:09 GMT
Lets just take an extreme hypothetical situation for a moment, to see if it can help out in this debate. Lets say that the 6 or 7 million people currently resident in the whole island of Ireland were taken out of Ireland and resettled elsewhere in all parts of the world. Then lets say that 4 million Pakistanis, 1 million Nigerians, 1 million Afghans and 1 million Brazilians were brought into Ireland and resettled there. Technically and legally they would be Irish and would fulfil your criteria as Irish and any culture that evolved would be Irish. How would you view that? I would be aghast at that and would consider the nation to have died, at least at home. The continuity would have been broken. I would feel exactly the same if all the replacements were from Western Europe. In this strange hypothetical situation, if the newcomers decided to practice or reconstruct the culture they had usurped, perhaps one could say Irishness had survived in Ireland. Can we agree then, that to maintain the fantastic culture that we have, that is the envy of virtually the whole world, that we need the people who are currently here in Ireland who have ancestry and roots that goes back as far as they can trace. Can we agree that, in light of the hypothetical scenario above, there would come a point at which the culture would disappear exponentially rapidly if the indigenous Irish reached a percentage of the population where they were a minority or a dispirited small majority?
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Sept 20, 2021 6:50:42 GMT
I would be aghast at that and would consider the nation to have died, at least at home. The continuity would have been broken. I would feel exactly the same if all the replacements were from Western Europe. In this strange hypothetical situation, if the newcomers decided to practice or reconstruct the culture they had usurped, perhaps one could say Irishness had survived in Ireland. Can we agree then, that to maintain the fantastic culture that we have, that is the envy of virtually the whole world, that we need the people who are currently here in Ireland who have ancestry and roots that goes back as far as they can trace. Can we agree that, in light of the hypothetical scenario above, there would come a point at which the culture would disappear exponentially rapidly if the indigenous Irish reached a percentage of the population where they were a minority or a dispirited small majority? In Sweden we have come closer to that situation. Some observations on the margin since this occupies the minds frequently: a) when people find out they are coming close to being minority in their own land something happens, a vague sense of - bewilderment? b) as most people really appreciate other people, no matter what origin, the tendency to racism is not omnipotent and various attitudes mix (to the disparagement of them who most would have wanted one genuine traditional culture and all the rest) while the feelings and thoughts in general tend to be a bit lost, c) no use to blame the arrivals since they were practically invited to come, so the whole problem of changes is up to the spectators in the broad sense - the voters - to take care of, peaceful and congenial rather than by resentment in rage. Notable on a personal level is how many of the foreigners have actually come to know a much higher rate of material living standard and have become very thankful for their new life in the West. Among friends in the parish I know this firsthand. Even though the ideal remain, the modern world to become a Christian Cultural Revival there need to be CONVERSIONS in the innermost meaning. Nothing else will do, especially not politics. In clinch with reality we ought to go more for Christian love to conquer Liberal Leftism at the heart I think. Political solutions never work and we must have Solidarity above everything else to get the new crooked lines right. In the long term grassroot Catholicism is the only way, like before more or less, once upon a time.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2021 8:44:55 GMT
I would be aghast at that and would consider the nation to have died, at least at home. The continuity would have been broken. I would feel exactly the same if all the replacements were from Western Europe. In this strange hypothetical situation, if the newcomers decided to practice or reconstruct the culture they had usurped, perhaps one could say Irishness had survived in Ireland. Can we agree then, that to maintain the fantastic culture that we have, that is the envy of virtually the whole world, that we need the people who are currently here in Ireland who have ancestry and roots that goes back as far as they can trace. Can we agree that, in light of the hypothetical scenario above, there would come a point at which the culture would disappear exponentially rapidly if the indigenous Irish reached a percentage of the population where they were a minority or a dispirited small majority? I disagree that our culture is the envy of the whole world. Do you mean Irish culture or "Western culture"? I would argue that we barely have a culture. The task of cultural revival was abandoned by the nineteen-sixties at least. We have the GAA and a tiny sub-culture of Irish speakers, little more than that. However, the reason I want to preserve (and revive) Irish culture is 1) because it's mine, and 2) because it's just as valuable as every other culture-- no more, no less, in my view. The more cultures there are in the world, the richer it is for everybody. I would prefer the sort of ethno-state we had at the dawn of Irish independence, where ethnic minorities would not be so large (alone or all put together) to change the fundamental culture of the country. However, we are passed this point already. We already have about twelve per cent (at least) non-nationals who have made Ireland their home. What do we do? Deport them? That seems inhumane, especially for the children who grew up here. For the Catholics among us, and most of us here are Catholics, it also seems to be against Catholic ethics, as stated in Veritatis Splendor by St. JP II. I believe most immigrants are not like George Nkencho. Speaking from personal experience, I've found the immigrants I've intereacted with to be very nice and not ungrateful at all. The other thing is that the Irish people CHOSE this. We voted ourselves into the EEC by an overwhelming majority. As the EEC morphed into a political union, we continued to support it, despite half-hearted resistance in the Nice and Lisbon Treaty referenda. Even now, the Irish people don't seem to care very much about this issue, as they show at the polling booths in election after election. If there was an Irexit vote tomorrow I would vote Leave, and hang the economic consequences. But I have to accept that my compatriots take a different view. There's also the argument that we ourselves went around the world in great numbers and continued to practice our culture and consider ourselves Irish there. This argument is a bit hackneyed but it's hard to argue against it. So no, I don't want the Irish to become an ethnic minority. I do want a conversation about how our cultural distinctiveness is going to be preserved, instead of the laissez-faire attitude that seems to prevail. But at this stage I don't think we can regain ethnic homogeneity or anything close to it. I agree with Tomas that ethnic strife would be even worse than the sort of rubbishy multiculturalism we have now (which isn't even so much multiculturalism as anti-culturalism). We have the example of Nothern Ireland to remind us. Also, I think it's very important to keep colour and race out of the discussion. Not only are these explosive issues, but it's not fair to judge or categorize someone on such a superficial characteristic. Having worked in a university library for twenty years, I can't count the amount of times I've encountered a student "with face as black as coal" (to quote the ballad), an obviously African name, and a thick Dublin accent. Are these kids not Irish? I consider them as Irish as I am. I agree with Antaine that we should be a lot more conservative about awardning citizeship.
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Sept 20, 2021 11:38:58 GMT
There's a difference between being Irish (race) and a citizen of Ireland, and the denial of such is simply a Left wing ploy to undermine the identity of White races. Nobody will tell the Indigenous/First Nation/Indian Americans that race is just a "social construct", and that it doesn't matter. They won't say it to Blacks in America either. They will say it to no one but pissed off White people who are tired of being treated like crap in their own countries. It's not racist to overwhelm White countries with foreigners they never asked for, but to take issue with it is. It's racist to ask why there are so many foreigners in a particular part of the country, but not racist to be a Black person who gets let into the country, given a free home, and then spits in the faces of Irish people, spouting slander about how inherently racist and "white privileged" the country is, and how there are too many White people in this field or that (therefore, diversity), or how so many White people in the White country they chose to go to makes them uncomfortable (therefore we need to bring in more people like them, even though race doesn't matter, just because why not?) The fact that people don't have the guts to call something so blatant for what it is, is a sign of how Leftist indoctrination and conditioning has seeped into even Conservative/Right-Wing movements. The fact that people barely muster an eye-roll when we hear about the latest Middle Eastern rape gang, Black riot over some degenerate criminal getting killed, or some Asian politician or other important figure demonising Whites or talking about their fantasies of wanting to shoot White men (met with reward, rather than outrage); the fact that this is the case on one hand, yet White people wanting to preserve their demographics is met with nervous handwringing and knee-jerks (at best) on the other, is a sign of how utterly sick and mentally neutered Western society has become. I'm sorry to derail the thread, but since this was a point that came up, it needs to be stated. For those who say race doesn't matter, it does. Not on a small-scale, personal level (this is where you judge a person on character as opposed to race); but on a large-scale, political one. Apparently everyone but White people understand this. I'll leave off with a lovely message from SNP Justice Minister Humza Yousaf, and his opinions on the travesty of too many Whites in Scotland, as an example of the racial hypocrisy that grips the West. We don't even have to imagine if it was in reverse: I just don't really understand why anyone cares about skin colour, either on an individual level or en masse. Why does it matter? Why should the Irish be white? I'm honestly baffled by the preoccupation of both right and left on such a cosmetic matter. In my view the important thing is not demographics but culture. And in truth the Irish people abandoned their culture (with the exception of the GAA) long before the influx of immigrants. The presence of Afghanis is not an obstacle to speaking Gaelic. The left play the race card to an obnoxious degree, but why play their game? Surely it's better to rise above it. My niece and goddaughter was born on this day- I always like reading the office of the modern feast of September 20,by Andrew Teagon of the Korean martyrs who uses a very Asian symbolism: "look at the farmer who cultivates his rice fields...when the harvest time comes and the rice crop is abundant, forgetting his labour and sweat he rejoices...if the crop is sparse and there is nothing but straw and husks the farmer broods over his toil." A small indication that a completely different cultures can be grafted onto more traditionally Western belief and philosophy,it's all about measure.
|
|
|
Post by Young Ireland on Sept 20, 2021 16:47:48 GMT
Direct question, Antaine. Why do you care about race? Why does it matter what colour anybody's skin is? Without reference to the left or anybody else, why do you yourself care? Lets just take an extreme hypothetical situation for a moment, to see if it can help out in this debate. Lets say that the 6 or 7 million people currently resident in the whole island of Ireland were taken out of Ireland and resettled elsewhere in all parts of the world. Then lets say that 4 million Pakistanis, 1 million Nigerians, 1 million Afghans and 1 million Brazilians were brought into Ireland and resettled there. Technically and legally they would be Irish and would fulfil your criteria as Irish and any culture that evolved would be Irish. How would you view that? The only time that this has ever happened in real life was in the aftermath of WW2, when the Polish Communists ordered any remaining Germans to leave what is now Western Poland, President Benes ordered their expulsion from Czechoslovakia and the Soviets did likewise in Hungary. I think it's fair to say that these, along with the mass deportations within the former Soviet Union, were appalling crimes that even the German minority's support for Nazism couldn't justify. Ironically, this is one reason, along with the Holocaust, that explains why these countries are now (artifically, in my view) homogenous. I don't think that this has any relevance to the situation today, where the vast majority of migration (excluding things like sex trafficking which no one would suggest is OK) is entirely voluntary and un-coordinated.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Sept 20, 2021 22:19:39 GMT
Lets just take an extreme hypothetical situation for a moment, to see if it can help out in this debate. Lets say that the 6 or 7 million people currently resident in the whole island of Ireland were taken out of Ireland and resettled elsewhere in all parts of the world. Then lets say that 4 million Pakistanis, 1 million Nigerians, 1 million Afghans and 1 million Brazilians were brought into Ireland and resettled there. Technically and legally they would be Irish and would fulfil your criteria as Irish and any culture that evolved would be Irish. How would you view that? The only time that this has ever happened in real life was in the aftermath of WW2, when the Polish Communists ordered any remaining Germans to leave what is now Western Poland, President Benes ordered their expulsion from Czechoslovakia and the Soviets did likewise in Hungary. I think it's fair to say that these, along with the mass deportations within the former Soviet Union, were appalling crimes that even the German minority's support for Nazism couldn't justify. Ironically, this is one reason, along with the Holocaust, that explains why these countries are now (artifically, in my view) homogenous. I don't think that this has any relevance to the situation today, where the vast majority of migration (excluding things like sex trafficking which no one would suggest is OK) is entirely voluntary and un-coordinated. Large scale population switches in Balkans in 1990s, Tibet 1960s ongoing, Palestine , and expulsions of Jews from North African and Arab countries. Widespread expulsion of original Christian populations from Syria and Iraq too.
|
|
|
Post by Young Ireland on Sept 21, 2021 6:13:45 GMT
The only time that this has ever happened in real life was in the aftermath of WW2, when the Polish Communists ordered any remaining Germans to leave what is now Western Poland, President Benes ordered their expulsion from Czechoslovakia and the Soviets did likewise in Hungary. I think it's fair to say that these, along with the mass deportations within the former Soviet Union, were appalling crimes that even the German minority's support for Nazism couldn't justify. Ironically, this is one reason, along with the Holocaust, that explains why these countries are now (artifically, in my view) homogenous. I don't think that this has any relevance to the situation today, where the vast majority of migration (excluding things like sex trafficking which no one would suggest is OK) is entirely voluntary and un-coordinated. Large scale population switches in Balkans in 1990s, Tibet 1960s ongoing, Palestine , and expulsions of Jews from North African and Arab countries. Widespread expulsion of original Christian populations from Syria and Iraq too. Apologies Cato, you are of course correct. I saw Assisi's post and gave the largest example that came to my mind. You could add India/Pakistan to the list too.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 21, 2021 8:12:04 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Sept 21, 2021 11:35:30 GMT
Interesting and educated take on the original topic. "Much has been made of the Afghan government’s military collapse that allowed the Taliban to seize all of the country without significant opposition, as if that was un-precedented. In fact, the last four governments in Afghanistan all collapsed in the very same way. Each experienced a sudden outside shock that led people to believe the existing regime had no future. In a land where the perception of power is power itself, acting on that belief made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. After each incident, the intoxication of an absolute victory led to the creation of governments by victors who believed they had no need to reconcile with their enemies and sowed the seeds for their own eventual replacement. Can the Taliban break out of this forty-year cycle, or will they provoke a new civil war in which they could lose power just as easily as they gained it? Thomas Barfield is a social anthropologist who conducted extensive ethnographic fieldwork among pastoral nomads in northern Afghanistan in the mid-1970s, with shorter periods of research in Xin- jiang, China, and post-Soviet Central Asia. His current research focuses on problems of political development in Afghanistan, particularly on systems of local governance and dispute resolution. In 2006, he was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship that led to the publication of Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History (Princeton University Press, 2010). His previous publications include The Central Asian Arabs of Afghanistan (University of Texas Press, 1981) and Afghanistan: An Atlas of Indigenous Domestic Architecture (University of Texas Press, 1991). Professor Barfield is Professor of Anthropology at Boston University. He is also Director of the University’s Institute for the Study of Muslim Societies and Civilizations. Since 2005, he has served as the President of the American Institute of Afghanistan Studies. He earned his BA in Anthropology from the University of Pennsylvania, and both his MA and PhD in Social Anthropology from Harvard University."
|
|
|
Post by cato on Sept 21, 2021 13:55:47 GMT
Interesting and educated take on the original topic. "Much has been made of the Afghan government’s military collapse that allowed the Taliban to seize all of the country without significant opposition, as if that was un-precedented. In fact, the last four governments in Afghanistan all collapsed in the very same way. Each experienced a sudden outside shock that led people to believe the existing regime had no future. In a land where the perception of power is power itself, acting on that belief made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. After each incident, the intoxication of an absolute victory led to the creation of governments by victors who believed they had no need to reconcile with their enemies and sowed the seeds for their own eventual replacement. Can the Taliban break out of this forty-year cycle, or will they provoke a new civil war in which they could lose power just as easily as they gained it? Thomas Barfield is a social anthropologist who conducted extensive ethnographic fieldwork among pastoral nomads in northern Afghanistan in the mid-1970s, with shorter periods of research in Xin- jiang, China, and post-Soviet Central Asia. His current research focuses on problems of political development in Afghanistan, particularly on systems of local governance and dispute resolution. In 2006, he was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship that led to the publication of Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History (Princeton University Press, 2010). His previous publications include The Central Asian Arabs of Afghanistan (University of Texas Press, 1981) and Afghanistan: An Atlas of Indigenous Domestic Architecture (University of Texas Press, 1991). Professor Barfield is Professor of Anthropology at Boston University. He is also Director of the University’s Institute for the Study of Muslim Societies and Civilizations. Since 2005, he has served as the President of the American Institute of Afghanistan Studies. He earned his BA in Anthropology from the University of Pennsylvania, and both his MA and PhD in Social Anthropology from Harvard University." Its nice to veer back to the original topic. Thanks Stephen. I am guilty of this fault on occasion but can we try to stick to the topic on each thread. We had a good discussion above on Irish identity but they belong on threads dealing with....... Irish identity. I notice it can be very hard to find discussions in a few months time when the title of the thread bears no resemblance to some of the topics discussed. I haven't time to police meandering but perhaps we could all try to stick to the topic "going forward"?
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 21, 2021 14:17:13 GMT
Interesting and educated take on the original topic. "Much has been made of the Afghan government’s military collapse that allowed the Taliban to seize all of the country without significant opposition, as if that was un-precedented. In fact, the last four governments in Afghanistan all collapsed in the very same way. Each experienced a sudden outside shock that led people to believe the existing regime had no future. In a land where the perception of power is power itself, acting on that belief made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. After each incident, the intoxication of an absolute victory led to the creation of governments by victors who believed they had no need to reconcile with their enemies and sowed the seeds for their own eventual replacement. Can the Taliban break out of this forty-year cycle, or will they provoke a new civil war in which they could lose power just as easily as they gained it? Thomas Barfield is a social anthropologist who conducted extensive ethnographic fieldwork among pastoral nomads in northern Afghanistan in the mid-1970s, with shorter periods of research in Xin- jiang, China, and post-Soviet Central Asia. His current research focuses on problems of political development in Afghanistan, particularly on systems of local governance and dispute resolution. In 2006, he was awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship that led to the publication of Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History (Princeton University Press, 2010). His previous publications include The Central Asian Arabs of Afghanistan (University of Texas Press, 1981) and Afghanistan: An Atlas of Indigenous Domestic Architecture (University of Texas Press, 1991). Professor Barfield is Professor of Anthropology at Boston University. He is also Director of the University’s Institute for the Study of Muslim Societies and Civilizations. Since 2005, he has served as the President of the American Institute of Afghanistan Studies. He earned his BA in Anthropology from the University of Pennsylvania, and both his MA and PhD in Social Anthropology from Harvard University." Its nice to veer back to the original topic. Thanks Stephen. I am guilty of this fault on occasion but can we try to stick to the topic on each thread. We had a good discussion above on Irish identity but they belong on threads dealing with....... Irish identity. I notice it can be very hard to find discussions in a few months time when the title of the thread bears no resemblance to some of the topics discussed. I haven't time to police meandering but perhaps we could all try to stick to the topic "going forward"? Seconded. I am as guilty as anybody else! This thread did out of control.
|
|
|
Post by Antaine on Sept 25, 2021 23:15:07 GMT
Maolsheachlann,
Just to answer the question you put to me, I'll answer it with a point you made but slightly rephrased:
"the reason I want to preserve the Irish race is 1) because it's mine, and 2) because it's just as valuable as every other race"
In regards Tomas' point about voting, I don't believe that's something we're ever given the choice to vote on. We just elect people and hope they'll act in our interest.
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Sept 26, 2021 15:06:37 GMT
Maolsheachlann, Just to answer the question you put to me, I'll answer it with a point you made but slightly rephrased: "the reason I want to preserve the Irish race is 1) because it's mine, and 2) because it's just as valuable as every other race" In regards Tomas' point about voting, I don't believe that's something we're ever given the choice to vote on. We just elect people and hope they'll act in our interest. It's right, what I meant was that the voters have been only spectators. They didn't choose, it happened above their heads. How this enormous wave of mass immigrations was done (in Europe) is nebolous as to both origins and movement dynamics. Just like the virus presently used to impose a Globalist revolution into "imperialist" digital world economy with full control for the upper top. But this is only a detail. No wish to bring this thread out of direction again.
|
|