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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 9, 2020 16:40:26 GMT
First, a personal line about me: Ideally I'd like to be at this good forum more, but I'm not finding any social media easy now or even e-mail. That said, I cannot resist posting an article about Ireland and the EU that I find very, very striking. This reflects fairly mainstream EU thinking I think, left-ish but not outrageously so. I find it very revealing indeed and will paste it in full with bits I find interesting in bold:
Ireland’s never been more alone in the EU
Dublin needs a new strategy in a Britain-less European Union.By EOIN DREA 2/6/20, 2:35 PM CET Updated 2/7/20, 5:02 AM CET Eoin Drea is senior research officer at the Wilfried Martens Centre for European Studies and a research fellow at Trinity College, Dublin. Forget the furor about the rise of Ireland’s left-wing Sinn Féin or the return of classic centrist chameleon party Fianna Fáil. Disregard, even, the likely removal of Prime Minister Leo Varadkar’s Fine Gael from government after nine years in power. The most important thing about Ireland’s upcoming general election is what nobody’s talking about: Ireland’s future in a Britain-less European Union.Long hailed as the poster boy for the EU’s particular type of economic success — a small, flexible economy matched with a young, liberal, multiethnic population — Ireland has been a soothing, centrist narrative for a Eurocrat crowd tired of political extremes. Brexit, too, thrust Ireland and the EU closer together. But not even Brexit-induced European solidarity will be able to (in the long run) mask the realities of Ireland’s increasingly anomalous position in Europe.Ireland has a deregulated, highly flexible global economy that lacks the comprehensive social protections of its continental counterparts.Amazingly for a country so defined by Europe in recent years — from the 2010 bailout to Britain jumping ship — Ireland has not confronted the deep contradictions at the heart of its intertwined relationships with Washington, London and Brussels. With Britain gone and the EU increasingly dominated by Paris and Berlin, Ireland is an economic outlier: the EU’s only purely globalist country — the last Anglo-Saxon standing.
[ Comment: UGH.] Ireland — a net contributor to the EU budget — has a deregulated, highly flexible global economy that lacks the comprehensive social protections of continental counterparts such as the Netherlands or Denmark. [ Comment: Lines like this make me feel I prefer the horrible Brussels frying pan to the consuming fire of the Anglo-American liberal project.] Its domestic policy choice has succeeded in turning the country into a lean, mean, foreign direct investment-attracting machine — a state with fully privatized child care and a social security model based on alleviating poverty (through very low-level payments) rather than the income replacement principle favored by most continental states. Ireland has lost an important partner on the EU stage — Britain. This economic model stands in stark contrast to the creeping centralism unleashed from the Elysée and now roaming wild without London (or a forceful Berlin) to dam it. The real danger for Ireland is that it has lost its partner on the EU stage and has not had a longer-term debate on Ireland’s relationship with Europe that is sorely needed. In this context, the short-termism of national politics represented by Fianna Fáil’s soft populism and Sinn Féin’s hard socialism is particularly damaging, as it draws focus away from this urgent task. Ireland should be thinking about hammering out existential compromises on corporate and digital taxation, data protection and the further centralization of the eurozone. It needs a coherent, post-Brexit strategy in Europe, and its people are desperate for a more stable, more sustainable economy. The time has come for Ireland to finally make a choice on how it plans to constructively contribute to the future of the EU, rather than being defined by its unwavering opposition to EU proposals on tax harmonization. Europe would benefit from Ireland setting out a realist, global trading approach to further European integration. Dublin should set forth a positive vision for a slimmer, competitive, less centralized, more globalist, English-speaking EU. Ireland also needs to extend her charms further to the north and east of the EU in its search for like-minded partners. With Britain now out of the mix, Europe too would benefit from an engaged Ireland setting out a realist, global trading approach to further European integration. Brexit placed (an initially nervous) Dublin at the core of EU decision-making. Now that the Brexit curtain has fallen, Ireland needs to work harder to stay center stage — and make sure it continues to be heard. [ Final Comment: My feelings here are very, very, VERY complex. But while "less centralised" sounds great, in today's globalised economy, I fear it may really mean more controlled by neoliberal Anglo-American economics. IOW dictated by the globalised banks/economy rather than dictated by the state.] Link: www.politico.eu/article/irelands-never-been-more-alone-eu-brexit-elections/ |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 9, 2020 16:50:16 GMT
Will just add the sheer paradox I see here. In France I saw this centralised culture at work, with all kinds of appalling consequences. BUT I also saw French statism/dirigisme/centralisation means: - Protecting French heritage, arts and culture (eg laws to require French radio to play French songs to the exclusion of English and far more.)
- More preservation of small businesses and far less domination by massive chain stores.
- A general ambience that is very notably less commercialised, standardised, globalist, Capitalistic.
- No French cities like those terrible Northern English wastelands of cities. (Because the French would never elect Thatcher.)
- Greater justice for the poor.
This is why I think I may even prefer the sizzling Brussels frying pan to the all-consuming "Thatcherite" Wall Street fire. I voted Brexit. I'm not sure I would do the same, if I lived in the 26 counties. Because this frying pan - as horrible as it is - may have slightly more chance of braking the Irish globalist trajectory. |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 9, 2020 16:53:51 GMT
Because this frying pan - as horrible as it is - may have slightly more chance of braking the Irish globalist trajectory. For again I say UGH to:
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 9, 2020 17:04:27 GMT
I hope I may be forgiven this seemingly manic outburst after a period of . . . I repeat this is a complex thing for me full of paradox. I am not about to become Brussels' cheerleader. But this article, among others I've read, is really HITTING something very deep for me. And if anyone is not weary of my manic-ness and interested at what I'm getting at here, I post (again!) a video here which serves to illustrate the contrast I saw between France and "globalist Anglo-Saxon" Ireland. I warn, though, it may seem similarly manic to the above . . .  |
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Post by cato on Jul 10, 2020 10:40:22 GMT
I think the remarks made about Ireland's inferior welfare services in the above article are nonsense. Ireland may have a globalist open economy but it combines that with generous welfare rates. Indeed Foreign Investment helps fund those services.
There will be a clash between our model of low tax foreign direct investment and the French primarily who regard it as unfair in the not too distant future . We do need allies in Europe to balance the departure of the UK who traditionally defended our common interests. Not that they ever got any credit for it! The Brits usually blocked any measure that would harm theirs and our strategic interests. This is one of the biggest disadvantages of Brexit from our point of view.
To date our government and media have put all their energies into attacking Brexit and seeking to undermine and over turn it. This policy has been a total failure. We have put little or no thought into our vision of where we want the EU to go or what's in our interests long term. We need a large ally or an alliance of smaller states to counter policies that may harm us. Ultimately EU states still Pursue policies in their own national interest. We seem to be willing to muddle along going with the flow.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 11, 2020 2:02:57 GMT
I think the remarks made about Ireland's inferior welfare services in the above article are nonsense. Ireland may have a globalist open economy but it combines that with generous welfare rates. Indeed Foreign Investment helps fund those services. There will be a clash between our model of low tax foreign direct investment and the French primarily who regard it as unfair in the not too distant future . We do need allies in Europe to balance the departure of the UK who traditionally defended our common interests. Not that they ever got any credit for it! The Brits usually blocked any measure that would harm theirs and our strategic interests. This is one of the biggest disadvantages of Brexit from our point of view. To date our government and media have put all their energies into attacking Brexit and seeking to undermine and over turn it. This policy has been a total failure. We have put little or no thought into our vision of where we want the EU to go or what's in our interests long term. We need a large ally or an alliance of smaller states to counter policies that may harm us. Ultimately EU states still Pursue policies in their own national interest. We seem to be willing to muddle along going with the flow. Cato you say a lot here that genuinely interests me and some which I'm tempted to debate - except that I suspect that often I don't know half as much as you do! So I won't debate much, but will remark on one thing, however: I think the remarks made about Ireland's inferior welfare services in the above article are nonsense. Ireland may have a globalist open economy but it combines that with generous welfare rates. Indeed Foreign Investment helps fund those services. I wonder if what the author meant to do was point not so much to different rates of welfare, but perhaps different kinds of "social protections" - to use his exact phrase. There is an English member of my family who has lived decades in the one of the EU countries the author cites in this context. Every time he comes back to Britain, he is appalled by the homelessness, a phenomenon he says he simply doesn't see in his new country in anything even remotely like the same measure. I think he would be similarly appalled by Irish homelessness. I can't say I know much about the difference between the welfare rates of his new country and Ireland. But I do wonder if they have very different systems, again, for "social protections". Huge topic and I imagine I'm not as informed as you ... But, as I say, I don't so much want to debate these points - as to stay with the core thing for me that has really hit me quite painfully from this ... Namely, the author speaking of Ireland as the "only purely Globalist" country left in Europe, now that the "other purely Globalist" country, Britain, is gone. I seem to incessantly stress this. If I do that, it is because this is the key thing that has prompted this mysterious outburst for me on this site again, after being withdrawn from it and the world for months. "This core thing for me" . . . "Quite painfully" . . . I hope to elaborate ere long. |
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Post by kj on Jul 11, 2020 8:47:10 GMT
Roger, this is a fascinating topic.
For me, the chief value is how it shows up the limitations of so much binary either/or tendencies in Conservative thought.
As Roger points out, EU-loving, centrist France does a far better job of protecting its culture than Ireland does, and most other nations.
I'm in a minority on this forum in that I am a major EU fan. Primarily because I detest the Anglo-American commercial mentality and because of what Roger has alluded to: there is simply a greater network of protection for the poor and disadvantaged in Europe than in the UK etc.
Having lived on the continent, I know they regard the Anglo-American world with horror at its cruelty and base materialism. Not that they are immune to it, of course, but having been ravaged by two world wars I feel they have a more compassionate view of people than those island nations who have been spared such horrors.
Anyway, great to see you back, Roger!
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Post by assisi on Jul 11, 2020 19:41:58 GMT
Desmond Fennell in his book 'The Revision of European History' quotes Lord Acton in 1895 as saying how intelligent French men were noticing the preponderance of the English race in both Britain and increasingly so in the U.S. just as the French themselves were stagnating population wise. Lord Acton went on to say 'They did not foretell ......that the three most important countries of the globe would, by the end of the century, be those that chiefly belonged to the conquests of the reformation'.
Fennell himself adds 'They would also, all three of them, be nations of Germanic origin. If the USA was 'Further Britain', Anglo Saxon Britain had begun its career as Further Germany.....[this] was the outcome, by 1900, of the movement westward of the Germanic peoples into the lands of the Western Roman Empire.'
But as well as sister nations they were also competitors involved in trying to achieve 'mastery' of the world.
Fennell goes on to say that America would eventually win this battle for mastery after the second world war and by the show of power and cruelty that was Hiroshima set in motion the 2nd American revolution which we are still witnessing today. Hiroshima was 'the culminating expression of the European Yahwehan complex that had its dual origin in British puritanism and the religious rationalism of the French revolution.'
In other words the U.S. saw itself as unquestionably right because it was not only rational but also the torchbearer for the progressive movement of history from the Reformation and the Enlightenment, moving inexorably in a forward darwinian evolutionary direction.
In broad terms there may be truth in saying that France erred in its deification of reason during the French revolution. But that the U.S (and Germany and Britain) not only traded on reason but added that puritanical zeal that they originated from, which among other things brought with it the primacy of the individual.
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Post by cato on Jul 11, 2020 20:35:18 GMT
One minor peeve - Ireland was never dominated by Anglo Saxon culture or their political/ military power. They were conquered by Franco Normans as were we. The Welsh version in our case.
The idea we are part of an Anglosphere conspiracy is rather simplistic. Our economic policy for many years has been based on trying to attract any foreign investors who also export into Europe. This policy has to date been highly successful. Even during the recent economic collapse Ireland is still exporting high value products. Most taxes gathered this year have come from multinationals.
Do I like this policy? No. Someday these companies will probably fly away to where Labour costs are cheaper in eastern Europe. We need native world class companies. We have some like Ryanair , no favourite of any Irish government but a major tax payer nevertheless. We need more Irish companies small , medium and large.
If anything current Irish policy is basically a beggar my neighbour policy which cannot continue in the medium run.
The idea that industrial giants like France and Germany aren't globalist too is ridiculous. They just charge more tax and have a bigger state sector. Virtually every state is part of globalised competition nowadays .
For most of its independent history Ireland has been an economic basket case. Since the 1990s we have shown this need not be the case forever.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 12, 2020 4:27:58 GMT
Kj, cato, Assisi - responses to you in that order: As Roger points out, EU-loving, centrist France does a far better job of protecting its culture than Ireland does, and most other nations. I'm in a minority on this forum in that I am a major EU fan. Primarily because I detest the Anglo-American commercial mentality and because of what Roger has alluded to: there is simply a greater network of protection for the poor and disadvantaged in Europe than in the UK etc. Having lived on the continent, I know they regard the Anglo-American world with horror at its cruelty and base materialism. Not that they are immune to it, of course ... Kj - very gratified indeed by your response that mirrors so many of my own feelings. And yes these "non-Anglo-Saxon" EU countries (to use the term prevalent in countries like France) do most often have a more pronounced horror of the "Anglo-American commercial mentality" as you put it. (I tried to point to this at something like the 21 minute mark of the video above.) Yes, as you also say, they are hardly "immune" to it. Hardly perfect, but definitely different in regards to crass commercialism. Also uglification. France, I especially find, very, very different in this regard. France is still striving for beauty, excellence, tradition in so many ways (eg. education, art, gastronomy) rather than dumbing down and the bottom line of profit. Which brings me to you, cato . . . The idea that industrial giants like France and Germany aren't globalist too is ridiculous. They just charge more tax and have a bigger state sector. Virtually every state is part of globalised competition nowadays . He's not saying they aren't globalist. But by labelling Ireland as the "only purely Globalist" left standing after the other "purely globalist" giant leaving, he is saying they're less globalist. Precise terms are hard, but I know what he's getting at. At least, modern Anglo-American, Anglo-Saxon countries - call them what you will - do feel more globalist, liberal (neoliberal) less traditional to me. And I think this author feels the same thing as I feel. As I said to you on that other thread, he and I feel the same thing about Ireland's "Anglo-Americanisation". The difference is he likes it and I find it horrifying. Still, this author and myself feel the same thing - something elusive, hard to pin down - and, I think kj, you feel it also. Assisi, I think your invocation of Fennell is relevant here too. And I think Fennell is feeling much the same thing as well - although he faults America more than Anglo-America. I don't agree with everything Fennell says in this book here, but it's germane to this, again, very elusive thing that some of us are feeling/seeing anyway ...  |
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Post by kj on Jul 12, 2020 20:00:58 GMT
Roger, I think the problem with discussing these issues is that so much of it depends on the feel of a country, not necessarily the legislation or laws and so on.
I lived in Spain for a year. It feels incredibly different to England and Ireland. Again, hard to specify, but a general feeling of a deeper culture, a deeper sense of a nation. Plus the Spanish place great value on the idea of dignidad - dignity. I think this partly explains why I never once saw a Spanish person drunk (they viewed English and Irish tourists with horror on account of their boozing). And they have a very firm social security net.
I moved briefly over the Pyrenees and France again felt very different to Spain, but again, a greater sense of self as a nation, a culture and so on. And we're all familiar with the high-tax, high protection French state. And Italy again has another feel.
Hence their, and my, and your horror of the profit motive Anglo-American mentality.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 12, 2020 21:54:11 GMT
I lived in Spain for a year. It feels incredibly different to England and Ireland. Again, hard to specify, but a general feeling of a deeper culture, a deeper sense of a nation. Plus the Spanish place great value on the idea of dignidad - dignity. I think this partly explains why I never once saw a Spanish person drunk (they viewed English and Irish tourists with horror on account of their boozing). And they have a very firm social security net. I moved briefly over the Pyrenees and France again felt very different to Spain, but again, a greater sense of self as a nation, a culture and so on. And we're all familiar with the high-tax, high protection French state. And Italy again has another feel. Hence their, and my, and your horror of the profit motive Anglo-American mentality. This is very heartening to read Kj. I have lived in Spain (18 months) and France (2 1/2 years). I absolutely agree: both are oriented to "a greater sense of self as a nation, a culture and so on". Ireland by contrast seems increasingly oriented to the economy and I will add, as so many French would, comme le monde anglo-saxon. (Bill Clinton: "It's the economy, stupid".) The French are really oriented to the State. (Louis XIV: "L'etat, c'est moi".) But Ireland used to be oriented to the Church . . . : - ( Kj, I am really very grateful for your comments. I think it often takes this experience of living outside the Anglosphere to really see the thing we're both seeing here. Also that Desmond Fennell saw so clearly. Others often can't see it so easily. I would love to hear more of your observations re the difference between living outside the Anglosphere versus the Anglo-American world. |
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Post by kj on Jul 13, 2020 10:13:32 GMT
Roger, as we both know such observations invariably contain a fair amount of subjective impressionism, not that that necessarily invalidates them.
I'm also very tired as I write this, and so it will be fragmented, but here goes:
I suppose on the whole I frankly preferred living outside the Anglosphere. I felt in Europe a greater civic and social sense, with a more harmonious relationship between state and civic society. My feeling is that in Ireland and the UK it is characterised by indifference, and of course in the US by outright hostility and suspicion.
I also feel life in Spain and France is more civilised. There is a greater respect for art, culture, history and so on. Italy is more chaotic and corrupt according to those who know, but we all know that the Italians pride living well on a personal level and there life is far more family and community orientated.
There is less of the hurry and bustle of Anglo living, life isn't lived entirely by the clock. Now of course a more relaxed living style is inevitable in the - let's face it - far more beautiful and appealing Mediterranean region, most of which is due to the weather. (I'm a big believer in the importance of climate on a culture's social and cultural settings.)
Fumbling for the right phrases again, but in Europe, to me anyway, there is simply more depth. One feels the living presence of history, in the architecture, the customs and so on. Now again this is inevitable to a point: we are talking about a continent of nations whose history is one of millennia of tumultuous inter-mixing, conflict and cross-pollination.
I do think one of the problems about the Anglo world is the predominance of the island mentality, whether it be Ireland, the UK, or the US. And yes, the last has land borders, but acts like a self-contained, insulated fortress, indifferent to the outside world. I think such circumstances naturally lead to a certain surface mentality, where materialism, commerce and a tendency to live in what I call "the perpetual present" takes hold. Even a country so allegedly obsessed with its own history like Ireland now sees a kind of official mentality where we are encouraged not to dwell on the past and instead become shiny, happy consumers. I felt this very much the last time I was home in Cork two summers ago. All I registered was shopping, coffee and creeping property prices.
On mainland Europe, simply due to the living presence of grand architecture and so on, this is less pervasive. It's maybe a bit of a cliche, but in the European countries they talk about centuries-old history as if it were last week. I find this wonderful!
I may come back to this later, but fear I am rambling on account of fatigue so will leave it there. Any feedback from you, Roger, or of course anyone else, is greatly appreciated.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 13, 2020 17:10:51 GMT
Kj - thank you for this very rich post, even if fragmentary or tired. Some initial remarks: Roger, as we both know such observations invariably contain a fair amount of subjective impressionism, not that that necessarily invalidates them. Yes and we can never avoid such. Nor we should try, I think. The final result of that would be living in world of positivism, where nothing is accepted, except the empirical or tautological ("all triangles have three sides"). Our society exalts this supposedly neutral objectivity/positivitism and the result is materialism, a world stripped of soul and beauty. I think the best each of us can do is continuously ponder and question our subjective impressions. This is at least what I try to do with my impressions of the Anglosphere versus continental Europe. I suppose on the whole I frankly preferred living outside the Anglosphere. I felt in Europe a greater civic and social sense, with a more harmonious relationship between state and civic society. My feeling is that in Ireland and the UK it is characterised by indifference, and of course in the US by outright hostility and suspicion. I also feel life in Spain and France is more civilised. There is a greater respect for art, culture, history and so on. Italy is more chaotic and corrupt according to those who know, but we all know that the Italians pride living well on a personal level and there life is far more family and community orientated. There is less of the hurry and bustle of Anglo living, life isn't lived entirely by the clock . . . in Europe, to me anyway, there is simply more depth. One feels the living presence of history, in the architecture, the customs and so on . . . It's maybe a bit of a cliche, but in the European countries they talk about centuries-old history as if it were last week. I find this wonderful! Warm smile. I recognise these same things and find them wonderful too. In France most especially I see this cherishing of their "art, culture, history and so on." Now, I prefer Ireland to all the other 6 -8 countries I have lived in. The Irish people touch me more deeply than any other I have known. But if Ireland keeps "forging ahead" as the "only purely globalist" in Europe, meaning they increasingly hate their own "art, culture, history and so on," I suppose that could change. Still, I doubt it. Ireland moves more deeply than I can say. It's just this new "globalist Ireland" isn't Ireland. What I hope for is an Ireland that can still be turned toward appreciating its "art, culture, history". But as Ireland joins more and more in this politically correct liberal-commercial hate of culture - which seems above all else Anglo-American to me - I can't help but look to France for a certain antidote/sanity. Despite how much I love Ireland ... These, as I say, are initial thoughts. There is more in your post I hope to respond to. I, too, hope others will respond to you. |
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Post by cato on Jul 13, 2020 19:34:23 GMT
A simple point that doesn't detract from points already made. Irish culture has been intimately linked and interwoven with Christianity for over 1400 years. That culture is now being discarded on a daily basis.
The embracing of mammon is only the most obvious aspect of that God hole in our lives. Whatever about the trauma of language loss, the loss of faith is literally the loss of our traditional soul. There is no non Christian Irish culture.
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