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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 14, 2020 23:17:24 GMT
Well, Roger, I think there may be an ambivalence when you say Britain has been profoundly European, maybe profoundly opposed to it! I think in later generations its EU membership may be seen as a 50 year anomaly in a larger anti-continental history. As for Ireland, if anything she seems to be becoming more and more American in her views toward nationality and citizenship: anyone who goes there and jumps through the hoops is seemingly as Irish as any native born Irish, hence the bruhaha over the citizenship ceremonies. No doubt Ireland is becoming ever more Americanised. And I agree with you about the 50 year anomaly - and even that was based on largely economic considerations. Plus the Americans wanted the UK in there. (Charles de Gaulle saw the UK as a "Trojan Horse" for American interests in Europe. I can't say he was wrong.) Now, I think I probably expressed myself rather sloppily, kj. To supply clarification: no matter what Britain does, she cannot help but be profoundly European, by reason of common culture, history, geography, religion etc. But she is always kicking against it. Myself, I find myself thinking of a lot of Belloc (and, I think Chesterton, too) who hoped to save Britain from Americanisation by pointing to Britain's profound European identity. This is at the core of Belloc's Europe and the Faith. I find myself thinking too of Desmond Fennell. Fennell loves Ireland deeply, having fought many years for the Gaeltacht. But Fennell loves Europe, having lived in several of its countries and speaking its languages (German, Swedish, Italian and more I believe - besides Irish, of course). He writes very movingly for me of Ireland's belonging to Europe. Belloc and Chesterton would agree. All would support Irish cultural independence, while seeing that part of Irish culture is inevitably its roots in European identity. I wonder if you have read Fennell? I tend to think he, you and I share a lot in common. |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 14, 2020 23:48:38 GMT
So much fascinating wonderful stuff in the all the above, kj and Tomas! Only time for some partial, initial responses, starting with you Tomas: The only risk I see in the discussion is that one may fall prey to wishful thinking in the process. Not that I disagree with any of the basic views, holding southern "Catholic" Europe to be far ahead of the anglosphere in terms of what is loveable in domain of culture, religion, and the arts. Italy is such a wonder that it is hard to dispell any charms, that might even be apt in their "cultural landscape" of latest years. Immigration is not the only thing to consider, and the most forceful factor appears to be the by now usual suspects: the no few morally dangerous adherents of Globalist, PC-tarnished, anglosphere-trash-ish, onesizefitsall-devised, illusive "New Age style religion-surrogate" making its way into the heart of the whole societal system. Same thing everywhere, in all parts of Europe, simply due to the effects of the economy made up on Globalism? I agree with your last line. It is indeed the "same thing everywhere" in Europe. Still, I was very deeply struck by how deeply the effect was delayed living in Spain and France. Much of that is the linguistic barrier, but I'm very clear dirigiste French law is truly protecting French culture. And beauty. And smallness/regionality/ruralism to a much greater degree than Britain/Ireland - despite French hypermarkets etc. I wonder, Tomas, how well you know Britain/Ireland? Would be interested to hear and if you feel, like I do and the author of the original piece, that they are more "purely globalist" now than elsewhere in Europe? Still, Tomas, you are also very right to warn about "wishful thinking". I hope I am not romantic. I could certainly write long posts about much that I see that is negative in France! I won't do that now - but it is implicit in why I find Ireland and the Irish so special, still. (If I over-emphasise France, it is only because I know it and its language/culture best. But yes I do know Spain somewhat and I have also lived in Germany and German Switzerland for over two years and could once read German, at least.) Thanks Roger for getting these brainwise challening themes opened. It is, for better or worse, emotionally challening as well. So felt since we are all being deliberately forcefed propaganda, and starving for decency, 24/7 around the globe nowadays. Exactly as pointed out, for example in the linked article in kj´s post above, no mean diet! The greatest tragedy of our times more like it. Nearly all my own efforts to participate here is handicapped in part by my not knowing either present Ireland/UK or continental EU countries first hand. What makes me try to connect despite that lack is an interest in history and society, or perhaps rather the idea of culture, in broad general. That way I have nothing but guesses about the actual state in regard to "more purely globalist" or not. (That guess would be that they are not so. Heavily Americanised it would seem from the internet views possible to read abroad, but not more globalist than the Globalist Elites have put into impact in other regions.) What I think/guess is that France and Spain may well still be, on the other hand, better placed to resist the supposed overrule by the "colonist" anglosphere, as suggested. They are better off in terms of geography and history to begin with. Their Catholic past is not entirely gone either. So definitely that would be more to consider than sheer romantic optimism on your hand. The broad picture of a mixed "anglosphere" and its difference to Europe, Asia and Russia is no whim to be sure. All North as it were marked by wayward Protestantism, if not cruelly at least flawed. No less disturbing questions arising lately are yet even more in the direction to Far East, and even to Middle East, when it comes to global business. Maybe the colonial days from the West are really gone, and the Leftist and Neoliberal madness in vandalism and PC-cult are only showing the lack of accurate theory among people against practical stronger facts, such as if an even greater wake may be far on its way, terrible, unstoppable, devastating, and sadly far worse than what we are used to hear of in teaching from the liberal textbooks. Last sidenote: In spite of aquired pessimism, all kind of wild "speculation" should never be taken as all serious from my pen anyway. It´s only abstract, for the better, and not based on any solid material at all. |
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Post by kj on Jul 15, 2020 7:57:24 GMT
Roger, I've read bits and pieces of Fennell. Certainly liked what I've seen. I see that his own website seems to have disappeared and that he is quiet lately, but of course he is advancing in age and has fought the good fight.
I suppose a lot of this just comes down as always to Ireland's almost unique position of being a country that does not have its own language and that has shed that which gave it its most distinct feature: Catholicism.
The parallels with America strike me more, as Ireland will doubtless face an ever deeper spiral of self-questioning: "What does it mean to be Irish? - What is Ireland about?" etc. Someone with a globalist agenda such as Fintan O'Toole uses this to push an ever more diluted and internationalist view of Ireland.
Now again this is subjective, but I think that European countries are less prone to this endless navel-gazing. A Frenchman seems to know what it means to be French, a Spaniard to be Spanish etc.
And there is also a fact that may be unpalatable to many conservatives of whatever stripe: namely that the view of Ireland held by someone born in 2000 may be almost utterly unrecognisable to someone born in the 70s or earlier. To them, a secular, multi-cultural, global Ireland is simply normal and that's that.
So maybe in the end we are left to fight our own personal battles and see it out as best as we can, with whatever integrity we can muster.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 15, 2020 19:10:20 GMT
Tomas, kj - grateful for your responses again. Personally speaking, something very mysterious is happening to me with this thread that I - mysteriously even to myself! - initiated. That mysterious initiating, plus everyone's responses, is working on me, as if to illumine some of the most central, existential issues of my life. I may say more soon about this strange "illumination", but first some responses to you Tomas, particularly to some things you say that I will bold: Thanks Roger for getting these brainwise challening themes opened. It is, for better or worse, emotionally challening as well. So felt since we are all being deliberately forcefed propaganda, and starving for decency, 24/7 around the globe nowadays. Exactly as pointed out, for example in the linked article in kj´s post above, no mean diet! The greatest tragedy of our times more like it. Nearly all my own efforts to participate here is handicapped in part by my not knowing either present Ireland/UK or continental EU countries first hand. What makes me try to connect despite that lack is an interest in history and society, or perhaps rather the idea of culture, in broad general. That way I have nothing but guesses about the actual state in regard to "more purely globalist" or not. (That guess would be that they are not so. Heavily Americanised it would seem from the internet views possible to read abroad, but not more globalist than the Globalist Elites have put into impact in other regions.) What I think/guess is that France and Spain may well still be, on the other hand, better placed to resist the supposed overrule by the "colonist" anglosphere, as suggested. They are better off in terms of geography and history to begin with. Their Catholic past is not entirely gone either. So definitely that would be more to consider than sheer romantic optimism on your hand. The broad picture of a mixed "anglosphere" and its difference to Europe, Asia and Russia is no whim to be sure. All North as it were marked by wayward Protestantism, if not cruelly at least flawed. No less disturbing questions arising lately are yet even more in the direction to Far East, and even to Middle East, when it comes to global business. Maybe the colonial days from the West are really gone, and the Leftist and Neoliberal madness in vandalism and PC-cult are only showing the lack of accurate theory among people against practical stronger facts, such as if an even greater wake may be far on its way, terrible, unstoppable, devastating, and sadly far worse than what we are used to hear of in teaching from the liberal textbooks. Last sidenote: In spite of aquired pessimism, all kind of wild "speculation" should never be taken as all serious from my pen anyway. It´s only abstract, for the better, and not based on any solid material at all. Tomas, you may suggest you are "abstract", not really experienced enough, based on solid material to say etc. But I would like to give you two compliments . . . that also argue with you. : - ) 1) Unlike most people reading this forum, you are truly bilingual. (I can read and understand French fairly easily now, also speak French to an extent, but writing French as you write English would still be hard for me.) IMHO, this bilingualism gives you an immediate experience and insight into the world that most folk in the Anglosphere don't have . 2) The fact that you are expressing such pain about what you see, that it is "emotionally challenging", means you are anything but abstract. For both those reasons and more, I think you have a lot to offer here. Now, I also want to quickly respond to your point about Globalisation versus Americanisation. But I lack time right now. So I'm just going to paste in a little bit from big Cor Jesu book that relates to this. More when I can ... |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 15, 2020 20:51:30 GMT
For what it´s worth my impressions of the common flood or wake, apparently ever growing and never ending with the impact of IT+AI and global business, of what you call anglosphere or "Anglo-American hegemony" is right there up front, vulgarily smashed in the eyes brains and bodies of every single man, so its "feel" can hardly be missed by anyone after last decades of societal "taking over" also blunt visibly.
But the political opposite to the Liberal rulers, the hordes more or less sympathetic to Socialist/Neocommunist/Leftist stupidites, rampant beyond imagination not least this year, is also pointing to the East of Russia and the other majors.
Thus, the only real hope is where it has always been: the one true religion, traditional catholicism, all that was and is good, what we usually for ease imply by the name Rome. Without conversions from top levels down within Holy Mother Church, without truth and saints, without removing filth of the abuses and coverups and corruption, other devilish machinations to hinder the most necessary, we will never experience any change tangible at all. Neither in Church nor societies.
Economy may be up and down but may probably recover faster than cultural values in any comparison. The world is only interested in its money and pleasures and surrogate cults, as it always has, so the whole matter must simply depend on whether southern Europe and the other regions of the world, various places where small community islets of saintly Catholics will prevail, actually will stand firm or not in loving resistence, prayers and longing, for the basic matters of freedom to make a return so desperately awaited. The sooner the better, or maybe we only have to be better patient. All´s Well That Ends Well...
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Post by kj on Jul 17, 2020 10:48:52 GMT
Just to confirm my earlier comment on my experience of Spaniards being disgusted by British alcoholism. “Parts of Spain in lockdown, the elderly shut away in care homes, we all wear masks in the street, but in Magaluf the antisocial and irresponsible Brits do whatever they please. It’s shameful.” Spain horrified by British tourists
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Post by cato on Jul 17, 2020 14:44:38 GMT
To qualify some of the remarks about Ireland as an Anglo Saxon outpost. This is relatively true economically and culturally.
It is not true ideologically where the Irish media and swathes of politicians and the public are instinctively anti American ( when Republicans are in power) and are increasingly anti British (usually when the Conservatives are in power). Similarly we have in public an exaggerated faith in the UN and the EU and a hyper critical approach to Israel and a complete silence on other human rights violators. We are also on paper commited to the climate change agenda . Not so much in reality though.
Our military neutrality after World War ii was based on the British occupation of the 6 counties. Sean Lemass said though if the EEC was good enough to join it was good enough to defend. We still haven't gotten around to join any alliance which shows much of our vaunted European values are hot air. How long this and our low corporation tax rate will remain is doubtful.
We may be Anglos when it comes to sport and salaries but we are now like 1960s lefty students when it comes to international affairs. Now that we have a temporary UN security council seat I await with bated breath our new global initiatives .
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 18, 2020 0:10:45 GMT
To qualify some of the remarks about Ireland as an Anglo Saxon outpost. This is relatively true economically and culturally. It is not true ideologically where the Irish media and swathes of politicians and the public are instinctively anti American ( when Republicans are in power) and are increasingly anti British (usually when the Conservatives are in power). Similarly we have in public an exaggerated faith in the UN and the EU and a hyper critical approach to Israel and a complete silence on other human rights violators. We are also on paper commited to the climate change agenda . Not so much in reality though. We may be Anglos when it comes to sport and salaries but we are now like 1960s lefty students when it comes to international affairs. Now that we have a temporary UN security council seat I await with bated breath our new global initiatives . Cato, I am glad to hear you can see the original article's point of Ireland as now "culturally and economically" an Anglo-Saxon outpost. And I hear you distinguishing that from "ideologically". I find that a genuinely helpful distinction, but only up to a point. For, even now, I say that this trendy left-ish ideological side may sound anti-Anglo, but compared to a lot of the French commentary I read/watch, it may still be subtly pro-Anglo. At least, this is how such French commentary would see it. I lack time to properly explain this. But there are all kinds of figures on both the French Right and Left who would see pro-EU as "pro-Anglo Saxon", because they see the EU as an American tool (roughly the economic wing of NATO, which for them explains things like Washington's drive for Turkey's inclusion in the EU). For them, Jean Monnet - as opposed to de Gaulle - was an American lackey. Plus américain que les Américains eux-mêmes . . . I'm not saying they're right! I remain confused on such things. But I do want to point out that, beyond the Anglosphere, there are many commentators who would say that even left-ish Ireland's apparent anti-Americanness is just that: apparent. Or skin deep. One could perhaps illustrate by saying that The Guardian in Britain might look anti-American, but compared to many voices on both the French Right and French Left, The Guardian would still appear very, very British, very Anglo-American at heart. But maybe I'm quibbling now. The main point that Ireland is now "culturally and economically Anglo-Saxon" is grave enough in itself, without my splitting hairs . . . |
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Post by kj on Jul 18, 2020 9:37:29 GMT
Ireland isn't anti-American; it's anti-Trump. Look at the fawning reception we give American presidents with even a hint of Irish ancestry in them.
My own impression is that Ireland has never been friendlier toward London, although admittedly it is probably best not to take the traditionally Anglophile Irish Times as an indicator of anything.
My own experience is that Irish people 'on the make' have an idealised view of 'London and New York', which seems to be their gold standard for everything.
But again, it comes back to the language barrier. I'd wager most people have no idea what's going on in Europe simply because they don't have the languages. It's a matter of course that Ireland will always look to the UK and US as role models, and those countries will always be the main source of cultural influence barring some unimaginable linguistic turn around on the part of the Irish nation.
It seems we are doomed to occupy an anomalous zone forever as a so-called European country that is culturally fuelled by Anglo-Saxon nations.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 1:23:56 GMT
Kj, I am hit by your post on several levels and I can't comment to all of them right now. (There are also other things you've said earlier on this thread, as well as other people have said, that I still want to comment on . . . ) Right now though, I restrict myself to this, particularly what I bold. My own impression is that Ireland has never been friendlier toward London, although admittedly it is probably best not to take the traditionally Anglophile Irish Times as an indicator of anything. My own experience is that Irish people 'on the make' have an idealised view of 'London and New York', which seems to be their gold standard for everything. I would be very, very interested to hear how you would date this impression, which is also my impression. For me, it seems that the FG/Enda Kenny era starting in 2011 may have been an important marker in this development, although it obviously doesn't start there and right now I can't say I have a lot to back that up. Then there was the troika bailout . . . I wasn't in Ireland then, having left in 2006, but I noticed an enormous change coming back in 2013 and, rightly or wrongly, I always associated at least some of that change with the bailout and Kenny's government. But because I wasn't watching Irish news at all closely then, I would be interested to hear from those who were during those years. So do you or anyone else think this new Anglophilia has anything to do with the developments I missed out on during my absence? |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 1:58:34 GMT
Despite the fact that I accused myself of "quibbling" with Cato over secondary things, I realise I want to return to my saying: For, even now, I say that this trendy left-ish ideological side may sound anti-Anglo, but compared to a lot of the French commentary I read/watch, it may still be subtly pro-Anglo. At least, this is how such French commentary would see it. I lack time to properly explain this. But there are all kinds of figures on both the French Right and Left who would see pro-EU as "pro-Anglo Saxon", because they see the EU as an American tool (roughly the economic wing of NATO, which for them explains things like Washington's drive for Turkey's inclusion in the EU). For them, Jean Monnet - as opposed to de Gaulle - was an American lackey. Plus américain que les Américains eux-mêmes . . . I'm not saying they're right! I remain confused on such things. But I do want to point out that, beyond the Anglosphere, there are many commentators who would say that even left-ish Ireland's apparent anti-Americanness is just that: apparent. Or skin deep. One could perhaps illustrate by saying that The Guardian in Britain might look anti-American, but compared to many voices on both the French Right and French Left, The Guardian would still appear very, very British, very Anglo-American at heart. But maybe I'm quibbling now. The main point that Ireland is now "culturally and economically Anglo-Saxon" is grave enough in itself, without my splitting hairs . . . Another way to illustrate this point is to say that while you Cato are pointing to anti-Americanness on the trendy Irish left, something very different exists in France: anti-Americanness on the Right. You do not see much anti-Americanness on the Irish Right or the Anglosphere Right in general. At least not on the mainstream Right. In Ireland, Desmond Fennell would certainly be an anti-American on the Right, but he's hardly mainstream (anymore - though he once was, when Ireland was less Anglophile). But in France and many other European countries you certainly find anti-Americanness on the Right, the very mainstream Right. Charles de Gaulle exemplified this, of course. On another thread, Cato, I believe you equated with this French loss of Empire. This is not an uncommon view in the Anglosphere and it is not entirely devoid of truth. But my own intensive immersion in de Gaulle's thinking and much else of the French Right suggests to me that the truth is much, much more substantial than simply that. The trouble is - one can't easily see that substance, unless one can read French (or Italian, German etc.)! And this is a dire problem these days, most people in the Anglosphere can't understand any language except English. I wish I knew better how to share such things from France. How differently the Anglosphere looks from over there. |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 2:13:34 GMT
A last little note: I recall reading of a conversation between de Gaulle, sincere French Catholic on the Right, with Konrad Adenauer, sincere German Catholic on the Right, who rebuilt Germany after the war.
It went something like this:
"Unless we do something, Herr Adenauer, your grandchildren won't be reading Goethe."
I wish I could recall more, but I suspect he was saying they would be reading American comic books instead of European culture ...
If so, he was prophetic in this as in so much else.
This really isn't about loss of Empire.
I'm sorry if I seem to be overly arguing with you, Cato. I don't want to slam your views, many of which really help and inform me at this forum.
But I'm concerned that there's something that is clear to continental Europeans, but which becomes ever less clear in Ireland.
And, with a heart in pain, I feel I need to stand up for that.
Which is what my initiating this mysterious thread, again mysterious even to me, is all about.
(If you're reading this Maolsheachlann, I fear that I might seem to be "slamming" things precious to you, as well. To be very personal, frank and "naked" here, it doesn't make me happy. But after all my immersion in the Francosphere, given to me by God's grace, I feel I must stand and speak what I see.)
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 2:35:08 GMT
I just said the above would be my last. But one final little mysterious naked explosion from a heart in pain, regarding this: But again, it comes back to the language barrier. I'd wager most people have no idea what's going on in Europe simply because they don't have the languages. It's a matter of course that Ireland will always look to the UK and US as role models, and those countries will always be the main source of cultural influence barring some unimaginable linguistic turn around on the part of the Irish nation. It seems we are doomed to occupy an anomalous zone forever as a so-called European country that is culturally fuelled by Anglo-Saxon nations. What can I say? This would seem perfectly clear, kj . . . and it breaks my heart. But I cannot help but hope against hope ... I do think the Irish, at least partly because of their residue of Catholicity, remain much more oriented to continental Europe than the UK. (I believe in polls the UK was always the most Eurosceptic and Ireland the opposite). And to be clear: I think the centralising supranational EU, as it stands today, has considerable dangers for Ireland ... But in this new post-Brexit world, I hope more Irish may break free from the "Anglosphere Overton Window". Every little bit helps ... Things like TLM in Ireland may seem a drop in the bucket. But it helps. What people like Maolsheachlann are doing with the Irish language (and this forum!) is another drop in the bucket. But it helps. I hope in time to really get myYouTube channel going better and that, along with my books about Ireland, represent another (tinier) drop in the bucket. But . . . I can't give up . . . 3.30 am. For now, end of "naked" explosions from a heart in pain ... |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 2:45:30 GMT
3.45 am now . . . I lied. Again. (As an old American friend of mine used to say "Sue me"  ... ) One final, final explosion . . . a video I have featured here before about GAFA and the European Right (with de Gaulle, de Valera, Belloc, Chesterton etc.) vs the American Right. Part of my drop in the bucket, for anyone who may be interested: |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 5:19:01 GMT
Hours later now and there is something I need to qualify in my “verbal onslaught” above.
It is this.
I don’t like sounding anti-American, nor to sound overly praising of this marked feature of the European Right.
I don’t really want to be anti any people or nation. We are all God’s children and being anti any of them is a sin.
That said, I see a clearer awareness in France than I do in the Anglosphere (with exceptions like Fennell) as to how America’s liberal, commercial culture destroys traditional culture.
I think Fennell, de Gaulle, Belloc saw something truly profound in this regard …
Fennell went to live in America for a time and, just like his Swedish year, the experience changed him profoundly, helping him forever see Europe and America in a different light than he ever had before.
So yes I see something deep in his insights, in de Gaulle’s etc that I feel needs to be more expressed in Ireland and the Anglosphere.
But I don’t want to slam America or Americans and I’m sorry if I seem to do that at times.
(The video was an attempt to get the balance right, more right than perhaps I sound in this latest “onslaught”.)
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... )