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Post by kj on Jul 19, 2020 11:21:49 GMT
Roger, so much to chew on there. My initial response will be fragmentary as I won't have a chance until this evening to watch your video. Firstly, my impressions regarding the Irish and London. I moved to London in 2010 and was introduced to a rep of an organisation that brought together Irish entrepreneurs in that city. I don't wish to sound cruel or uncharitable, but it was all very suave, self-assured, confident, 'metropolitan', with a hint of disdain for the 'auld country' and the general belief that London was the centre of the world. Another occasion: I was introduced to the London correspondent of a major Irish newspaper. He had only recently arrived in the city and was gushing with enthusiasm about the 'sophistication' of the English parliamentary system and how it put our set-up to shame etc etc. Same wide-eyed awe regarding the 'big city'. Again, these are anecdotes, but it's anecdotes that suggest the truths of a larger movement that is inaccessible except through small but telling encounters. ************** It's funny you mention De Gaulle. Before lockdown I had been reading a major new biography of the General, "A Certain Idea of France" by Julian Jackson. It's so well regarded it's one of the few English language De Gaulle biographies that has been translated into French. Anyway, as you doubtless know De Gaulle fled to Ireland after he resigned in order to avoid Pompidou's inauguration. It seems bitterly ironic now, but De Gaulle praised Ireland for having "resisted Anglo-Saxon influence" or some such!!!! ****** Another relevant coincidence: a friend who is reading a book on the Hedge Schools sent me this excerpt: "Kerry was the county which contemporary writers repeatedly singled out as the centre of classical learning in Ireland, especially the famous classical hedge school at Faha, where scholars, some of whom were intended for the priesthood, arrived from all over the country, in search of the much coveted ’Munster Diploma’ for proficiency in Greek, Latin and Hebrew. George Holmes was astonished to meet ’amongst the uncultivated part of the country’, ’good Latin scholars’ who could ’not speak a word of English’. The Rev. J. Milner could testify from his own personal contact with the peasants that a great proportion of them ’some twenty or thirty years back, could even converse fluently in Latin." How far have we fallen! The Irish Hedge School and its Books 1695-1831. by Antonia McManus
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 21:57:34 GMT
Ireland isn't anti-American; it's anti-Trump. Look at the fawning reception we give American presidents with even a hint of Irish ancestry in them. My own impression is that Ireland has never been friendlier toward London, although admittedly it is probably best not to take the traditionally Anglophile Irish Times as an indicator of anything. My own experience is that Irish people 'on the make' have an idealised view of 'London and New York', which seems to be their gold standard for everything. But again, it comes back to the language barrier. I'd wager most people have no idea what's going on in Europe simply because they don't have the languages. It's a matter of course that Ireland will always look to the UK and US as role models, and those countries will always be the main source of cultural influence barring some unimaginable linguistic turn around on the part of the Irish nation. It seems we are doomed to occupy an anomalous zone forever as a so-called European country that is culturally fuelled by Anglo-Saxon nations. It may also have something to do with RTEs lazy coverage of foreign news in general. At times it is beyond a joke.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 22:06:13 GMT
All very interesting, kj! Right now, though, I must restrict myself to this: It's funny you mention De Gaulle. Before lockdown I had been reading a major new biography of the General, "A Certain Idea of France" by Julian Jackson. It's so well regarded it's one of the few English language De Gaulle biographies that has been translated into French. I am very struck you have read that book! It is good in how exhaustive it is. Alas, I think the author is firmly stuck in the Anglo-American Overton Window - as though he cannot imagine anything from a French perspective. He knows what de Gaulle did, but lacking a broader perspective, he does not seem to know why he did it. Autistic is harsh word but . . . In any event, I decided to go to Amazon.fr to see what the French say. I'm translating a French review that seems to me fairly typical of what many French would think: Yes, de Gaulle was a major thorn in Washington's side. Pulling France out of NATO and challenging the injustice of the dollar's supreme position as reserve currency were amongst his many "crimes". It's been a while since I read Jackson's book and I might be exaggerating its defects. But this is the impression I took from it - Jackson knows everything there is to know about De Gaulle . . . except his soul.
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 22:09:55 GMT
I will respond in time to some of Rodger Bucks interesting observations on this topic and on General De Gaulle , a hero of mine as you might guess but a man with flaws too.
Ireland is not the only English speaking country left in the EU. Malta may be a small ex British colony but from my limited knowledge it too has a model of encouraging foreign direct investment too. I presume they have copied our example. So perhaps it's a little inaccurate to say the Irish are the only Anglo globalists in the EU.
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 22:21:07 GMT
All very interesting, kj! Right now, though, I must restrict myself to this: It's funny you mention De Gaulle. Before lockdown I had been reading a major new biography of the General, "A Certain Idea of France" by Julian Jackson. It's so well regarded it's one of the few English language De Gaulle biographies that has been translated into French. I am very struck you have read that book! It is good in how exhaustive it is. Alas, I think the author is firmly stuck in the Anglo-American Overton Window - as though he cannot imagine anything from a French perspective. He knows what de Gaulle did, but lacking a broader perspective, he does not seem to know why he did it. Autistic is harsh word but . . . In any event, I decided to go to Amazon.fr to see what the French say. I'm translating a French review that seems to me fairly typical of what many French would think: Yes, de Gaulle was a major thorn in Washington's side. Pulling France out of NATO and challenging the injustice of the dollar's supreme position as reserve currency were amongst his many "crimes". It's been a while since I read Jackson's book and I might be exaggerating its defects. But this is the impression I took from it - Jackson knows everything there is to know about De Gaulle . . . except his soul. I quite liked Jackson's tome which was quite strong on how odd and prickly De Gaulle could be.De Gaulle was deeply private and even aspects of his strong Catholicism are not straightforward. Jean Lacouture's famous trilogy on the general was translated into English in the 1990s into two volumes well worth reading. From my memory of them they weren't as focused on the personal aspects of Dr Gaulle as Jackson is. Or maybe my memory isn't 100% . It's been 20 years since I last read them! Lacouture praised the translation eventually after complaining initially that they had the cheek to abridge his Opus Magnus.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 22:29:59 GMT
One more thing for now re this: Anyway, as you doubtless know De Gaulle fled to Ireland after he resigned in order to avoid Pompidou's inauguration. It seems bitterly ironic now, but De Gaulle praised Ireland for having "resisted Anglo-Saxon influence" or some such!!!! My favourite book on de Gaulle is C'etait de Gaulle, where de Gaulle is quoted about Ireland. I found an Irish Times piece about this translating his comments. I am bolding some, deleting a little and breaking down the paragraphs for easier reading from a screen. I will just note that de Gaulle had a vision of the Common Market very different from Jean Monnet's or what now rules in Brussels. He was in favour of it, but utterly against the drive to supranationalism. Link to full article : www.irishtimes.com/culture/de-gaulle-s-love-of-ireland-based-on-ideal-of-fatherland-1.133611
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 22:55:00 GMT
I quite liked Jackson's tome which was quite strong on how odd and prickly De Gaulle could be. I'm glad to hear you've read Jackson and much more about CdG, Cato. I agree de Gaulle had real flaws and look forward to hearing more from you. As for "odd and prickly" I suppose my concern here is that Jackson may not deeply understand why de Gaulle was "odd and prickly" and with deeper, penetrating understanding of the man, "odd and prickly" could look like something rather more profound than simple eccentricity or irritation. Indeed, perhaps something rather more noble.
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 22:55:09 GMT
Ireland isn't anti-American; it's anti-Trump. Look at the fawning reception we give American presidents. Cato I am pretty much anti Trump based on his odious self centred character. I do approve of many of his actual policies but I am conflicted as to whether his lack of leadership at such a time of crisis trumps his flaws. (Terrible pun is intended) I recall protests in Ireland against Richard Nixon (Irish ancestors) and Ronald Reagan (Irish stock) I fondly remember the much loved Bishop Eamonn Casey burning his UCG BA in public on that occasion over US policy in Central America . Both Republican presidents . I don't recall protests when Clinton graced our shores but he got the obligatory Democratic party - all is overlooked and forgiven card from most of a fawning media. We don't dislike Americans just conservative Republicans. If either Bush visited Ireland I can't recall it now. I don't really know if the posh D4 Irish chattering classes are as anti US in reality as they pose. Their only core value is fundamentally about accumulating cash. Striking left wing social positions while getting personally richer and richer is what they are happiest doing.
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 22:57:31 GMT
This is fun.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 22:57:56 GMT
I cannot quite believe how I am presently behaving on this forum.
Is it a bizarre aberration or a harbinger of permanent change?
I really don't know.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 19, 2020 23:03:58 GMT
Warm smile. And I must depart now, shaking my head in wonder at myself . . . : - )
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Post by cato on Jul 19, 2020 23:19:05 GMT
One more thing for now re this: Anyway, as you doubtless know De Gaulle fled to Ireland after he resigned in order to avoid Pompidou's inauguration. It seems bitterly ironic now, but De Gaulle praised Ireland for having "resisted Anglo-Saxon influence" or some such!!!! My favourite book on de Gaulle is C'etait de Gaulle, where de Gaulle is quoted about Ireland. I found an Irish Times piece about this translating his comments. I am bolding some, deleting a little and breaking down the paragraphs for easier reading from a screen. I will just note that de Gaulle had a vision of the Common Market very different from Jean Monnet's or what now rules in Brussels. He was in favour of it, but utterly against the drive to supranationalism. Link to full article : www.irishtimes.com/culture/de-gaulle-s-love-of-ireland-based-on-ideal-of-fatherland-1.133611Very interesting observations. De Gaulle also had Irish ancestors, some of the Mc Cartins from County Down I think joined the Wild Geese in the French Army . De Gaulle also caused a diplomatic faux pas at an official dinner in his honour in Dublin by repeating his Long Live Free Quebec remark but substituting Ireland for Quebec. Allegedly his microphone was switched off by embarrassed civil servants.
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Post by kj on Jul 20, 2020 8:27:24 GMT
Roger, interesting observation about Jackson being unable to comprehend De Gaulle's soul. I was trying to think of something similar in Irish terms and toyed with Ruth Dudley Edward's Pearse biography, but there it might be a case of her understanding his soul and simply abhorring it.
I think there's a tendency in the world of Anglosphere biographies to concentrate on tittle-tattle and soap opera style renditions of politicians' lives. Rarely does one encounter a solid engagement with a person's ideas. Someone like Montefiore comes to mind.
I'm tempted to connect it with the alleged Anglo abhorrence of over-intellectualisation, but worry I may be straying into cliche territory.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 21, 2020 0:08:32 GMT
I am struck by how three people here have all been reading the same (not exactly well-known blockbuster) book on de Gaulle! Is it pure coincidence I wonder? Roger, interesting observation about Jackson being unable to comprehend De Gaulle's soul. I was trying to think of something similar in Irish terms and toyed with Ruth Dudley Edward's Pearse biography, but there it might be a case of her understanding his soul and simply abhorring it. I think there's a tendency in the world of Anglosphere biographies to concentrate on tittle-tattle and soap opera style renditions of politicians' lives. Rarely does one encounter a solid engagement with a person's ideas. Someone like Montefiore comes to mind. I'm tempted to connect it with the alleged Anglo abhorrence of over-intellectualisation, but worry I may be straying into cliche territory. Hmm ... no-one ever accused the French of over-intellectualisation! As to RDE, I wonder if anyone can truly understand a soul they "abhor"? True, deep understanding presupposes establishing some link of sympathy with the person in question in order to perceive, I think. Now, I haven't yet read more than a little of her Pearse bio, but I suspect Jackson is not quite abhorring CdG. Still, I wonder if he is carrying some very, very similar baggage to RDE that prevents his deeper understanding. I repeat: I wonder . . . I may be being too harsh. I need to revisit the book. But to continue anyway, I can't easily imagine Jackson having much sympathy with CdG's central concerns. For example, I would be surprised indeed if Jackson were Catholic and he seemed very aligned with precisely the mainstream Anglo-American mentality (which mentality however is not mainstream in France!) that CdG challenged on so many fronts. I fear . . . again I wonder . . . if Jackson just has far too much of a WASP, pro-American mentality to really, truly GROK why CdG felt so troubled by American culture, capitalism and hegemony. Instead of seeing CdG, then, as profoundly, compassionately concerned with justice and culture, it becomes easy to write him off as an "obsessive crank". All this perhaps relates, kj, to your comment re: biographer's lacking "solid engagement with a person's ideas." Here I really do see something like an WASP Overton window. Jackson seemed thoroughly ensconced in that to my mind. And maybe I see that WASP Overton window, because I was once thoroughly ensconced in it myself, before I converted to Catholicism, before I moved to Spain and France in particular, which (like Fennell in Sweden and America) changed me forever. And I think it is only thanks to such experiences that I can see CdG concerned and animated by something far nobler than what people in the WASP Overton window simply write off as "obsessions" and whatnot. Without ever seeing anything deeper or more moral than "obsession", "crankiness", "eccentricity" etc. etc. Alas, Ireland has its own versions of this Anglo-Saxon window now now. Nearly all the Dev bios I've read seem deeply infected by something similar. Ferriter's Judging Dev being a notable exception. CdG, Dev and Pearse all deserve better than the mainstream biographies written about them. (At least the English bios - as, again, French bios of CdG frequently give a very different picture!)
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Post by rogerbuck on Jul 21, 2020 6:35:06 GMT
Going all over the place here . . . but after invoking Ferriter's decidedly different Dev bio, I'd like to paste in a few lines from the final page of the book summing Dev up ...
I fear my bolding may seem overly pedantic, but I hope it is not amiss . . .
This thread, this thread . . . I so strangely initiated. (Anyone who knows me well, knows that I am behaving in almost unheard of ways for me.)
"A strong sense of nationhood" . . . Ireland had this under Dev . . . this very noble spirit . . .
It is a key as to why he has been increasingly hated by an increasingly globalist world . . .
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