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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 18, 2018 9:51:04 GMT
An efficient ruthless campaign aided by a completely sympathetic media with the backing of huge American corporations like Facebook Google and our old friend George Soros would seem to have squashed their opponents in a shameless but convincing manner. Cato, a question for you or anyone else here. Can you - or anybody - say more to back this up, including good links etc. This isn't scepticism on my part. Hardly! Just wanting to find as much substance as I can regarding this. Also a second question to you - completely off-topic. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is Charles de Gaulle on your avatar. Or maybe my glasses aren't powerful enough ... But if it is de Gaulle, I would be interested to hear anything about your reason for choosing him as your "representative". He has been VERY much on my mind of late ...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 18, 2018 10:08:03 GMT
The afore-mentioned Dave Cullen has a good video on the referendum campaign. I can't remember what depth he discussed the Soros influence etc. but his other videos on the subject probably cover it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT1nObx_12cWhen I say my only hope is in the internet anti-PC right, I didn't mean to suggest I have no hope in the Church. In the long term, my ONLY hope is in the Church. But Irish people are not going to listen to the Church, for the most part. Even if the bishops were more assertive, I'm not sure it would make a huge amount of difference to Irish culture, politics and society right now.
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 18, 2018 10:43:43 GMT
Thank you for that, Mal. Will watch that! When I say my only hope is in the internet anti-PC right, I didn't mean to suggest I have no hope in the Church. In the long term, my ONLY hope is in the Church. But Irish people are not going to listen to the Church, for the most part. Even if the bishops were more assertive, I'm not sure it would make a huge amount of difference to Irish culture, politics and society right now. Also I stand corrected by the last. My only hope is the Church, too - but a Church that will need to recover so, so much that is lost. Which I am confident She will. I am struck by your words "right now". While I do wonder if it would have made more difference than you imagine, a very live issue for me here is not "right now" - but what the Irish Church has been doing for the last fifty years. Had THAT been different .... And saying that, I will also mention that I would be grateful for any more thoughts from anyone, also links, articles, videos etc on the response of the Bishops etc during the campaign.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 18, 2018 11:16:51 GMT
The general consensus seems to be that the bishops were better off backing away from pronouncements in the media, since it would probably just backfire, but that priests could have done more to instruct their congregations.
Would that have even made any difference, though? I'm not sure how much attention Catholics pay to what priests say in the pulpit.
On the other hand, there was nothing to lose, apart from priests possibly getting grief from parishioners.
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Post by cato on Jun 18, 2018 13:35:36 GMT
The general consensus seems to be that the bishops were better off backing away from pronouncements in the media, since it would probably just backfire, but that priests could have done more to instruct their congregations. Would that have even made any difference, though? I'm not sure how much attention Catholics pay to what priests say in the pulpit. On the other hand, there was nothing to lose, apart from priests possibly getting grief from parishioners. When your back is up against the wall you have nothing left to lose. If we didn't fight this issue as a church tooth and nail then I conclude we will never fight for anything. Can we imagine the church 30 years ago taking such a defeatist stance? St John Paul would have turned his righteous wrath on our Yes establishment class publically had he been the one to attend the WMF in August. The English Catholic church also took a low profile approach to the British Abortion Act in the 1960s in case opposition was seen as an exclusively catholic affair. Prudence isn't always the best policy. Sometimes it is disastrous.
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Post by cato on Jun 18, 2018 19:21:36 GMT
Also a second question to you - completely off-topic. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is Charles de Gaulle on your avatar. Or maybe my glasses aren't powerful enough ...
But if it is de Gaulle, I would be interested to hear anything about your reason for choosing him as your "representative". He has been VERY much on my mind of late ...[/quote]
Your eyesight is perfect !
General De Gaulle is one of my heroes. I would be interested in why he is on your mind at the moment. Today June 18 is the date in 1940 when he broadcast to a defeated France from London not to surrender and to continue to fight Nazi tyranny from abroad. He was denounced as a traitor by those who caved in and had pitifully few resources save an iron will and a profound belief in an eternal free and proud France. And he prevailed. His story is a story of how human beings can and do make a difference in history. I do get great inspiration from his life.
He was a great leader who refused to accept the facts of defeat and dreamed of eventual freedom. He also was able to make that a reality through ruthlessness, patience and sticking to his principles much to the annoyance of his British snd US allies. Churchill referred to him as "my cross of Lorraine" .
Personally fearless he braved German snipers to attend Mass in Notre Dame in August 1944 and was almost assasinated on dozens of occasions. His strong leadership helped France to recover her self respect after the squalor of collaboration.He was prickly and stubborn and had many flaws like all of us but had that special gift that makes someone great.
He had a strong marriage and was one of the few French politicians to remain faithful to his wife Yvonne. They had a Down's syndrome daughter that they loved dearly (I will post about that relationship some time soon). He refused a state funeral and was buried in his home village in a low key military funeral with no VIPs present.They had a requiem in Notre Dame in his absence!
There are lovely photographs of De Gaulle in Ireland after he resigned especially walking the beaches in Kerry. Many commentators commented on the physical and indeed historical similarities between himself and De Valera when he paid a call to the park to visit the President. Two great men at the end of their careers.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 18, 2018 19:30:37 GMT
The most intriguing thing I heard about De Gaulle was his admission (unless I am wrong) is that he became bored with the top job after the Algerian crisis.
Can you imagine being in charge of getting bored?
I admire him for standing up to the brats in 1968.
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Post by cato on Jun 18, 2018 19:52:20 GMT
The most intriguing thing I heard about De Gaulle was his admission (unless I am wrong) is that he became bored with the top job after the Algerian crisis. Can you imagine being in charge of getting bored? I admire him for standing up to the brats in 1968. There was a particularly stupid poster posted by the spoiled middle class brats in 1968 that depicted De Gaulle as a masked Hitler. It shows the same mixture of ignorant stupidity and malice that those leftists who accuse the Israelis of being Nazis possess nowadays. De Gaulle was quite prone to depression and mood swings as was Churchill so the remarks you referred to wouldn't surprise me unduly. He did have an active 1960s annoying the British Americans Israelis etc by asserting French self interest. The leftist views of May 1968 ignores the huge Conservative counter demonstrations and the Gaullist electoral landslide later that year. In a more profound way the posers did win the cultural ideological war unfortunately that has led us to our present malaise of meaningless pleasure seeking individualism. De Gaulle also had Irish ancestory which might explain some of his stubborn traits!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 18, 2018 19:55:32 GMT
In a more profound way the posers did win the cultural ideological war unfortunately that has led us to our present malaise of meaningless pleasure seeking individualism. Yes...but in our time, the right seems to be winning the meme war!
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 19, 2018 18:45:33 GMT
Also a second question to you - completely off-topic. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is Charles de Gaulle on your avatar. Or maybe my glasses aren't powerful enough ... But if it is de Gaulle, I would be interested to hear anything about your reason for choosing him as your "representative". He has been VERY much on my mind of late ... Your eyesight is perfect ! General De Gaulle is one of my heroes. I would be interested in why he is on your mind at the moment. Today June 18 is the date in 1940 when he broadcast to a defeated France from London not to surrender and to continue to fight Nazi tyranny from abroad. He was denounced as a traitor by those who caved in and had pitifully few resources save an iron will and a profound belief in an eternal free and proud France. And he prevailed. His story is a story of how human beings can and do make a difference in history. I do get great inspiration from his life. He was a great leader who refused to accept the facts of defeat and dreamed of eventual freedom. He also was able to make that a reality through ruthlessness, patience and sticking to his principles much to the annoyance of his British snd US allies. Churchill referred to him as "my cross of Lorraine" . Personally fearless he braved German snipers to attend Mass in Notre Dame in August 1944 and was almost assasinated on dozens of occasions. His strong leadership helped France to recover her self respect after the squalor of collaboration.He was prickly and stubborn and had many flaws like all of us but had that special gift that makes someone great. He had a strong marriage and was one of the few French politicians to remain faithful to his wife Yvonne. They had a Down's syndrome daughter that they loved dearly (I will post about that relationship some time soon). He refused a state funeral and was buried in his home village in a low key military funeral with no VIPs present.They had a requiem in Notre Dame in his absence! There are lovely photographs of De Gaulle in Ireland after he resigned especially walking the beaches in Kerry. Many commentators commented on the physical and indeed historical similarities between himself and De Valera when he paid a call to the park to visit the President. Two great men at the end of their careers.[/quote] Very good to hear indeed, Cato! Right now, I don't think I can do justice to the complex things I feel about de Gaulle, but I will say your comparison to Dev seems very apt to me. Devout Catholic politicians who both fought for their culture and both recognised the Anglo-American threat to such (even if Dev, I think, being dependent on the Irish American contingent spoke more softly about America.) While I am still struggling with certain aspects of his legacy, (eg Algeria) I also feel that he was very deeply on the same track as Belloc, contra "Wall Street and Washington" for lack of a better language. Belloc would have been very encouraged indeed by de Gaulle's moving to a "monarchical" French presidency with the Fifth Republic. Again, struggling with certain aspects ... but I was at his grave in France and was and am very deeply moved by him. I intend to study him in great depth. A book C'etait de Gaulle has astonished me for all kinds of reasons, including the Dev/Belloc parallels, but much much more ...
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 19, 2018 18:55:31 GMT
Hm ... I feel like saying that for those who may be interested the latest Brandsma Review is available as a free pdf at their Facebook page. It came out before the Referendum, but has many, many fine things to say regarding it.
And somehow I want to paste in something from it by editor Peadar Laighléis. Arguably I should raise this at the forum associated with Brandsma, but I am cutious what people make of it here. I am particularly interested in what I bold about Soros/US Democrats (and again if anyone knows more about such things please pass on links to me).
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 19, 2018 22:09:18 GMT
If I may offer a consolation:
I was right about one thing, the result of this referendum has given the right wing (nationalist, reactionaries, sane liberals and everything inbetween who arent communist) the touchstone around sanctity of life as the defining issue, albeit not in the way I had hope as a positive reinforcement, but as the solid NO point that every Irishman worth half a beggar's damn will refuse to bend on. That is enough to start a movement, and it is such a simple, fundamental issue as the issue of life that it carries no other baggage in Irish history, the movement to come will be free to develop, to have dialogues, to discuss, to argue to negotiate amongst itself and its coalition of like minded allies.
From right to left any man who is against abortion is on our team, for those who are not against us are for us, and those who are not for us are against us, and this issue, the issue of life, is the central political and moral tenet, our litmus test, our non-negotiable point of reference, our touchstone, the table upon which even dreaded enemies may break bread upon for the sake of the common cause of our posterity and descendents, our promise to our ancestors and our faithfulness to God. We my at the ened of the day, only ever get a hard ten percent of the population on our side at any one time.
Which is fine, Jesus converted an empire with twelve men, so numbers matter less than conviction.
As to your post, Roger, the American involvement and the spiritual warfare surrounding Ireland at the time of the referendum was clear for any who had eyes to see. I still can't believe it, and still have niggling doubts the outcome was rigged somehow, but I must accept the worst case scenario in order to build a best case end scenario. If it comes out tomorrow the government faked half the votes somehow, my conscience will be salved but my anger will be magnified. I have already called for hangings for less egregious crimes, but our government in cahoots with rootless globalists like Soros and the borderline satanists in the US democratic party for the sake of murdering babies and deceiving the Irish public is a stone too far.
But for now, lets assume the worst, so that what we build may become the best it can be.
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Post by cato on Jun 19, 2018 22:52:25 GMT
Very good to hear indeed, Cato!
Right now, I don't think I can do justice to the complex things I feel about de Gaulle, but I will say your comparison to Dev seems very apt to me. Devout Catholic politicians who both fought for their culture and both recognised the Anglo-American threat to such (even if Dev, I think, being dependent on the Irish American contingent spoke more softly about America.)
While I am still struggling with certain aspects of his legacy, (eg Algeria) I also feel that he was very deeply on the same track as Belloc, contra "Wall Street and Washington" for lack of a better language. Belloc would have been very encouraged indeed by de Gaulle's moving to a "monarchical" French presidency with the Fifth Republic.
Again, struggling with certain aspects ... but I was at his grave in France and was and am very deeply moved by him. I intend to study him in great depth. A book C'etait de Gaulle has astonished me for all kinds of reasons, including the Dev/Belloc parallels, but much much more ...[/quote]
I have an ambition to pay a pilgrimage to De Gaulle's grave in Columbey de deux Eglises so you bet me to it. He is a fascinating character and had that increasingly rare trait - greatness .
He was pretty ruthless in withdrawing France from the bloody civil War in Algeria. Much of France's current Islamic problem is linked to that pull out from North Africa but like Vietnam earlier De Gaulle realised there was no military solution to the new Arab nationalist movements. He also showed a more conciliatory side in his overtures to the German people especially in his friendship with Chancellor Adeneur.
He was also a great reader and devoured 3 or 4 books a week even as president which is something modern politicians could imitate. President Macron is only the latest French president to attempt to wrap himself in the General's mantle . Whether he suceeds remains to be seen.
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Post by cato on Jun 23, 2018 8:31:36 GMT
Meanwhile failed US presidential candidate Mrs Hilary Clinton told TCD students yesterday she was inspired by the May 25 Referendum results. I can see the abortion referendum being linked with the 1970s civil rights and Nelson Mandela in the liberal pantheon of constant onward progress. Heck .... Sinn Fein activists have been fighting for human rights for almost 50 years. Pity about all the bombings shootings and tortures but as that leading human rights theorist chairman Mao said omelettes require many smashed , broken and crushed eggs.
An attempt was made by the BDS crowd to No Platform Hilary over her pro Israeli stance but some people are too important to silence I guess.
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Post by assisi on Jun 23, 2018 11:18:42 GMT
Hm ... I feel like saying that for those who may be interested the latest Brandsma Review is available as a free pdf at their Facebook page. It came out before the Referendum, but has many, many fine things to say regarding it. And somehow I want to paste in something from it by editor Peadar Laighléis. Arguably I should raise this at the forum associated with Brandsma, but I am cutious what people make of it here. I am particularly interested in what I bold about Soros/US Democrats (and again if anyone knows more about such things please pass on links to me). You may know this already, but a series of emails from Wikileaks involved John Podesta, Hilary Clinton's chief campaigner. He talks about their (Democrats) involvement with 2 particular groups/organisations, consisting of liberal Catholics. The purpose of these groups was to chip away at traditional Catholicism in the US and to particularly target Catholic policy in the area of sexual morality in order to bring these views into line with the liberal policies of the Democrats. In short a deliberate and surreptitious attempt to undermine Catholicism. www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/10/12/clinton-campaign-chief-helped-start-catholic-organisations-to-create-revolution-in-the-church/
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