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Post by Stephen on Feb 22, 2022 10:27:50 GMT
Russia Ukraine conflict
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 22, 2022 10:50:20 GMT
It's hard to get through the Western propaganda to get at the Russian propaganda. My instinct is to say: "A plague on all their houses". I blame NATO and globalism for bringing the crisis about. Which doesn't justify Putin's actions.
My instinct is always to side with the small nation. But does that mean we should side with the Ukraine or with the two new states Russia has recognized? The media says these are simply Russian puppet states but does that delegitimize them?
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Post by Stephen on Feb 22, 2022 13:42:17 GMT
It's hard to get through the Western propaganda to get at the Russian propaganda. My instinct is to say: "A plague on all their houses". I blame NATO and globalism for bringing the crisis about. Which doesn't justify Putin's actions. My instinct is always to side with the small nation. But does that mean we should side with the Ukraine or with the two new states Russia has recognized? The media says these are simply Russian puppet states but does that delegitimize them? I find its all very interesting (like a car accident in the geopolitical battle ground) and would be a similar mind set to you. What is going on in Ukraine?Why Germany won't help UkraineUkraine and Russia preparing for a new warNews "Germany on Tuesday is taking steps to halt the process of certifying the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia because of Moscow's actions in Ukraine, Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced." I don't think Germany is going to stop the flow Gas
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Post by cato on Feb 22, 2022 17:09:21 GMT
It's hard to get through the Western propaganda to get at the Russian propaganda. My instinct is to say: "A plague on all their houses". I blame NATO and globalism for bringing the crisis about. Which doesn't justify Putin's actions. My instinct is always to side with the small nation. But does that mean we should side with the Ukraine or with the two new states Russia has recognized? The media says these are simply Russian puppet states but does that delegitimize them? [br I disagree entirely Maolsheachlann. NATO has been one of the most important organisations in ensuring European peace since 1949. The old saying it was designed to " keep the Germans down, the Russians out and the Americans in" has a lot of wisdom in it. We take that peace for granted at our peril. The NATO alliance is voluntary. Those East European nations who joined did so because of their experience under Stalinist oppression. Their occupation only ended in the early 1990s. I find it quite disturbing that their desire for security, sovereignty and independence is seen as some sort of threat against Russia.They choose to join an alliance that promises to defend them in the event of armed attack, ultimately with the threat of massive nuclear force. Putin is a sabre rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire. His behaviour in recent days is highly disturbing , erratic and menacing. No one in the West is threatening Russia .He openly threatens to attack his neighbours and to over turn international borders by force of arms. There is no room for moral equivalence here. The west is led by very weak leaders and is only emerging from a period of internal covid related paralysis. This is a deliberate attempt by a cynical bullying Putin to test an inept US administration to see how far he can go and what he can grab. The danger with this 1914 or 1938 power play is we live in a nuclear world . The stakes are much higher than back then. We need to pray sanity will prevail. That doesn't include appeasement or surrender to aggression.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 22, 2022 19:36:04 GMT
It's hard to get through the Western propaganda to get at the Russian propaganda. My instinct is to say: "A plague on all their houses". I blame NATO and globalism for bringing the crisis about. Which doesn't justify Putin's actions. My instinct is always to side with the small nation. But does that mean we should side with the Ukraine or with the two new states Russia has recognized? The media says these are simply Russian puppet states but does that delegitimize them? [br I disagree entirely Maolsheachlann. NATO has been one of the most important organisations in ensuring European peace since 1949. The old saying it was designed to " keep the Germans down, the Russians out and the Americans in" has a lot of wisdom in it. We take that peace for granted at our peril. The NATO alliance is voluntary. Those East European nations who joined did so because of their experience under Stalinist oppression. Their occupation only ended in the early 1990s. I find it quite disturbing that their desire for security, sovereignty and independence is seen as some sort of threat against Russia.They choose to join an alliance that promises to defend them in the event of armed attack, ultimately with the threat of massive nuclear force. Putin is a sabre rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire. His behaviour in recent days is highly disturbing , erratic and menacing. No one in the West is threatening Russia .He openly threatens to attack his neighbours and to over turn international borders by force of arms. There is no room for moral equivalence here. The west is led by very weak leaders and is only emerging from a period of internal covid related paralysis. This is a deliberate attempt by a cynical bullying Putin to test an inept US administration to see how far he can go and what he can grab. The danger with this 1914 or 1938 power play is we live in a nuclear world . The stakes are much higher than back then. We need to pray sanity will prevail. That doesn't include appeasement or surrender to aggression. Very interesting, Cato. You may be right. I will have to look into it in more depth.
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Post by Séamus on Feb 23, 2022 12:00:57 GMT
[br I disagree entirely Maolsheachlann. NATO has been one of the most important organisations in ensuring European peace since 1949. The old saying it was designed to " keep the Germans down, the Russians out and the Americans in" has a lot of wisdom in it. We take that peace for granted at our peril. The NATO alliance is voluntary. Those East European nations who joined did so because of their experience under Stalinist oppression. Their occupation only ended in the early 1990s. I find it quite disturbing that their desire for security, sovereignty and independence is seen as some sort of threat against Russia.They choose to join an alliance that promises to defend them in the event of armed attack, ultimately with the threat of massive nuclear force. Putin is a sabre rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire. His behaviour in recent days is highly disturbing , erratic and menacing. No one in the West is threatening Russia .He openly threatens to attack his neighbours and to over turn international borders by force of arms. There is no room for moral equivalence here. The west is led by very weak leaders and is only emerging from a period of internal covid related paralysis. This is a deliberate attempt by a cynical bullying Putin to test an inept US administration to see how far he can go and what he can grab. The danger with this 1914 or 1938 power play is we live in a nuclear world . The stakes are much higher than back then. We need to pray sanity will prevail. That doesn't include appeasement or surrender to aggression. Very interesting, Cato. You may be right. I will have to look into it in more depth. I happened to see a letter-to-the-editor today by someone of Anglo-Saxon name who remarked "to me it seems that the Russian request to keep NATO out of Ukraine and thus NATO nuclear weapons and rockets from their border seems eminently reasonable"....so different perspectives in the west do exist. Russia today may resemble fascism of the past more than traditional communism. For various reasons several now-canonized saints originally welcomed Mussolini's government in the beginning and one could be excused for seeing positives now in Russia's global independence and religious observance (at least compared to the rest of us). "The word came from Maynooth support the fascists, The men of cloth failed yet again....." "Bob Hillard was a Church of Ireland pastor.... From Derry came a brave young Christian Brother And side by side they fought and died in Spain"(for the comms that is) Christy Moore (Vive la Quinte Brigada) makes no secret of his own leaning,but,all the same,with some historicity shows a real possibility of various opinions. I once read a slip of an old Catholic paper,printed during the ascent of Franco's power, that questioned the amount of killings by his side and the appropriateness of him publicly attending mass,notwithstanding what had been done to the Spanish church by the other side. Political opinion had never been as entirely black and white as sometimes thought. Of course opinions don't save lives, hopefully the international community can do this.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 23, 2022 12:19:19 GMT
Very interesting, Cato. You may be right. I will have to look into it in more depth. I happened to see a letter-to-the-editor today by someone of Anglo-Saxon name who remarked "to me it seems that the Russian request to keep NATO out of Ukraine and thus NATO nuclear weapons and rockets from their border seems eminently reasonable"....so different perspectives in the west do exist. Russia today may resemble fascism of the past more than traditional communism. For various reasons several now-canonized saints originally welcomed Mussolini's government in the beginning and one could be excused for seeing positives now in Russia's global independence and religious observance (at least compared to the rest of us). "The word came from Maynooth support the fascists, The men of cloth failed yet again....." "Bob Hillard was a Church of Ireland pastor.... From Derry came a brave young Christian Brother And side by side they fought and died in Spain"(for the comms that is) Christy Moore (Vive la Quinte Brigada) makes no secret of his own leaning,but,all the same,with some historicity shows a real possibility of various opinions. I once read a slip of an old Catholic paper,printed during the ascent of Franco's power that questioned the amount of killings by his side and the appropriateness of him publicly attending mass,notwithstanding what had been done to the Spanish church by the other side. Political opinion had never been as entirely black and white as sometimes thought. Of course opinions don't save lives, hopefully the international community can do this. I think a lot of conservatives in the West (me included) feel a certain sympathy for Russia because it seems to be standing up against the secularizing currents coming from the Western world right now, as well as the LGBT etc. agenda. And also from the perception that a multipolar world is better than a unipolar one, more resistant to cultural and ideological homogenization. I also think the alarm regarding potential NATO and EU membership seems understandable. And personally I am a Russophile anyway. Which is not to say invading another country's sovereign territory is justifiable at all. As Séamus says, I think we are all just hoping and praying for the least loss of human life now.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2022 13:47:37 GMT
From my limited reading of the geopolitical environment. We will not have the same "Peace" this century as we had since WW2. The World is going to become more divided by regional power without the American hegemony
I think it is a very simplistic view that "Putin is a sabre-rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire." What is happening is not a new thing and has been happening since the founding of Russia. His actions may seem erratic and menacing but they are not, just the tactics of an intelligent chess player as the West or Europe has been a threat to Russia or the Orthodox sphere for over 1000 years. Russia is facing a major demographic decline, economic stagnation and multi-frontal problems on its borders. “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” Sun Tzu
I can agree it is disturbing to see war looming and a breakdown of negotiation. This is a result of the west being led by very weak leaders, growing social unrest and the USA pulling back (Afghanistan). I respect Russia and can agree with a lot of the social policies they have enacted (Pro family, faith and Fatherland). That does not make them Europe or Irelands friend.
let's hope and pray for peace.
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Post by cato on Feb 23, 2022 15:29:44 GMT
]I think it is a very simplistic view that "Putin is a sabre-rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire."
Stephen quoting one line of mine in isolation is unfair. Putin has 1) indeed made numerous threats in recent days /months/years. This is blatant sabre rattling. 2)He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual.
I also go on to discuss other issues you ignore (which is your right). Please if you want to quote me , do it in context.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2022 15:49:49 GMT
]I think it is a very simplistic view that "Putin is a sabre-rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire." Stephen quoting one line of mine in isolation is unfair. Putin has 1) indeed made numerous threats in recent days /months/years. This is blatant sabre rattling. 2)He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual. I also go on to discuss other issues you ignore (which is your right). Please if you want to quote me , do it in context. My comments were mostly related to your comments and I think I gave a it a fair reply. I did skip over the NATO start bit on looking back. "He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual." This is true and most of Russia see it as a great shame. I think it needed to happen as the USSR was a rotten tree. That being said what the Americans did to Russia was shameful but who would be surprised. Look what they did to the Germans Maybe for clarity, what exactly do you want me to discuss?
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Post by cato on Feb 23, 2022 17:05:53 GMT
Very interesting, Cato. You may be right. I will have to look into it in more depth. I happened to see a letter-to-the-editor today by someone of Anglo-Saxon name who remarked "to me it seems that the Russian request to keep NATO out of Ukraine and thus NATO nuclear weapons and rockets from their border seems eminently reasonable"... Seamus I apologise for commenting on a quote you quote. ( I once drove a thesis director mad by trying to this a long time ago). I am a bit of a military geek so please excuse the following rant but I think it's relevant given the excuses made by Putinistas on the left and the right. NATO does not deploy nuclear weapons anywhere in Eastern Europe. It has a historic agreement to deploy 100 old fashioned tactical nuclear bombs in a sharing agreement with Germany , Italy, Holland, Belgium and Turkey to reassure those countries and to give them a practical say in their own ultimate security. Plus in the case of Germany to guarantee Germany would never build its own nuclear weapons. These weapons are not missiles or placed on missiles. The last NATO land based nuclear missiles ( cruise, pershing missiles) were decommissioned in the late 1980s and 1990s and were not replaced. Most NATO strategic nuclear weapons ( USA/UK/ French) are sea based on submarines since the 1990s. Putin is well aware of this. Russia also has a large submarine nuclear arsenal as well as land based strategic missiles. Any missile deployed in the Eastern part of NATO is generally on a fighter plane to deter bombers or intruders, or is a Patriot SAM designed to shoot down offensive missiles. Russia hasn't returned the favour and has recently deployed Iskander tactical missiles with a 500 km range which are designed specifically to target potential European targets.
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Post by cato on Feb 23, 2022 17:18:37 GMT
]I think it is a very simplistic view that "Putin is a sabre-rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire." Stephen quoting one line of mine in isolation is unfair. Putin has 1) indeed made numerous threats in recent days /months/years. This is blatant sabre rattling. 2)He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual. I also go on to discuss other issues you ignore (which is your right). Please if you want to quote me , do it in context. My comments were mostly related to your comments and I think I gave a it a fair reply. I did skip over the NATO start bit on looking back. "He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual." This is true and most of Russia see it as a great shame. I think it needed to happen as the USSR was a rotten tree. That being said what the Americans did to Russia was shameful but who would be surprised. Look what they did to the Germans Maybe for clarity, what exactly do you want me to discuss? My original post composed of 5 related points responding to a post Maolsheachlann made. You picked one line out and branded it as simplistic without explaining why.I was trying to make a wider point about a complex dangerous situation. Many on the right, especially in Ireland, seem to be as one with the far left on the topics of NATO, Putin and geopolitics in general.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 23, 2022 18:14:18 GMT
It is a sobering thought that Russia very recently flew warplanes past our territorial waters. Yes, I agree there is a kneejerk tendency on the right to side with Putin.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2022 19:21:36 GMT
It is a sobering thought that Russia very recently flew warplanes past our territorial waters. Yes, I agree there is a kneejerk tendency on the right to side with Putin. Why is that sobering. The Brits and Americans do it all the time. Wasn't to long ago the British were shooting Priests and Killing Catholics.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2022 19:27:19 GMT
My comments were mostly related to your comments and I think I gave a it a fair reply. I did skip over the NATO start bit on looking back. "He is an ex KGB/FSB operative who has lamented the fall of the USSR as a catastrophe for Russia. That is pretty factual." This is true and most of Russia see it as a great shame. I think it needed to happen as the USSR was a rotten tree. That being said what the Americans did to Russia was shameful but who would be surprised. Look what they did to the Germans Maybe for clarity, what exactly do you want me to discuss? My original post composed of 5 related points responding to a post Maolsheachlann made. You picked one line out and branded it as simplistic without explaining why.I was trying to make a wider point about a complex dangerous situation. Many on the right, especially in Ireland, seem to be as one with the far left on the topics of NATO, Putin and geopolitics in general. I used one quote but addressed multiple issues. Far left and right wing, Fairly useless terms today but thats an argument for a different day. What position do you want the Irish to have? A general question. Why are we so focused on this issue versus so many other acts of aggression across the world? Is it Ireland place to intervening?
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