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Post by Jack W on Feb 27, 2022 17:11:34 GMT
Putin has announced this lunch time he is putting Russian strategic nuclear forces on high alert in response to NATO statements! I don't subscribe to the mad Putin theory but this naked paranoid malevolence is historically unprecedented and alarming. This is deliberate brinkmanship with the fate of humanity . But sure its really the west's fault bla bla bla forcing Putin to attack a neighbour and forcing him to threaten armagedon..... How were we so silly... I was the evil Russians all along
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Post by cato on Feb 27, 2022 21:24:54 GMT
Putin has announced this lunch time he is putting Russian strategic nuclear forces on high alert in response to NATO statements! I don't subscribe to the mad Putin theory but this naked paranoid malevolence is historically unprecedented and alarming. This is deliberate brinkmanship with the fate of humanity . But sure its really the west's fault bla bla bla forcing Putin to attack a neighbour and forcing him to threaten armagedon..... How were we so silly... I was the evil Russians all along Not so much the "evil Russians" as one particular evil Russian. 🤔
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 27, 2022 21:49:06 GMT
John Waters has come down pretty hard on the pro-Russian side, so to speak. I'm subscribed to his "John Waters Unchained" emails (though I'm not a paid subscriber), there doesn't seem to be a website version of this article. Posting it for information only, not because I agree with it. Waters seems to have become more and more extreme in recent years. I don't think it's tenable to say that the West is starting a war to make their populations forget about the lockdowns, because I don't believe Western populations are angry enough about lockdowns to make this necessary.
This all started back in 2014, when a US-backed violent and bloody coup replaced Ukraine’s democratic government with a rabidly anti-Russian administration, thus provoking the attempted breakaways of the Donbass republics. The coup was orchestrated by a mixture of the Obama/Clinton administration, tech giants, and an extremist militia on the ground in Ukraine, namely the Azov Special Operations Detachment, also known as the Azov Battalion — a (for once genuinely) ‘far right,’ Neo-Nazi quasi-Ukrainian National Guard unit. This is what Putin means about ‘denazifying’ Ukraine. These are the kinds of people the Irish government — which sees the ‘far right’ everywhere except where’s it is actually to be found — now stands alongside. Obama’s objective at the time was to place military outposts and nuclear weapons on Ukrainian soil.
Ukraine, by any historical measure, is a fascist rogue state, or at least it would if the spell-words uttered on the international stage by representative of the great powers or their puppets could be taken in the least seriously. Its president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is a literal clown — a former stand-up comedian who would be out of his depth were he not merely a US puppet.
Ukraine is the new Yugoslavia, a disintegrating country without a cohesive identity. Its borders are a construct of the former Soviet Union and its actions in seeking to browbeat the Donbass countries will almost certainly hasten its own final disintegration.
Russia has had an undercover presence in Donetsk and Lugansk for the past eight years, following the US-sponsored 2014 coup. The Russian presence has been at the invitation of the separatist leaderships of those republics. On Monday last, Russia formerly recognised both republics and sent peacekeeping forces to put an end to attacks by the Kiev government and its proxies, as well as continuous blockades of the republics’ economies, in a persistent and blatant flouting of agreements signed up to by all sides several years ago.
Russia claims Ukraine has reneged in its undertaking in the Minsk accords of 2016 to grant special status to Donetsk and Lugansk. Kiev has refused to sit down with the leaders of the two republics as per the terms of the Minsk agreements. Putin claims it is not interested in a peaceful solution, which sounds about right. Kiev is carrying out the orders of the UN, the US, the EU and NATO, all of which are intent upon starting a war somewhere or other — any war will do — to cover their own filthy tracks. Putin could have done what he did today on any other day of the past seven years — to far better effect. He did not initiate this episode.
Donetsk and Lugansk have the same legitimate claim to secede from Ukraine as Ireland had to secede from Britain a century ago. Russia’s actions are predicated on avoiding a full-scale war within the territory of Ukraine, and also with protecting itself from incursions by Western powers into its own neighbourhood.
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Post by cato on Feb 27, 2022 23:56:22 GMT
John Waters has come down pretty hard on the pro-Russian side, so to speak. I'm subscribed to his "John Waters Unchained" emails (though I'm not a paid subscriber), there doesn't seem to be a website version of this article. Posting it for information only, not because I agree with it. Waters seems to have become more and more extreme in recent years. I don't think it's tenable to say that the West is starting a war to make their populations forget about the lockdowns, because I don't believe Western populations are angry enough about lockdowns to make this necessary. This all started back in 2014, when a US-backed violent and bloody coup replaced Ukraine’s democratic government with a rabidly anti-Russian administration, thus provoking the attempted breakaways of the Donbass republics. The coup was orchestrated by a mixture of the Obama/Clinton administration, tech giants, and an extremist militia on the ground in Ukraine, namely the Azov Special Operations Detachment, also known as the Azov Battalion — a (for once genuinely) ‘far right,’ Neo-Nazi quasi-Ukrainian National Guard unit. This is what Putin means about ‘denazifying’ Ukraine. These are the kinds of people the Irish government — which sees the ‘far right’ everywhere except where’s it is actually to be found — now stands alongside. Obama’s objective at the time was to place military outposts and nuclear weapons on Ukrainian soil.
Ukraine, by any historical measure, is a fascist rogue state, or at least it would if the spell-words uttered on the international stage by representative of the great powers or their puppets could be taken in the least seriously. Its president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is a literal clown — a former stand-up comedian who would be out of his depth were he not merely a US puppet.
Ukraine is the new Yugoslavia, a disintegrating country without a cohesive identity. Its borders are a construct of the former Soviet Union and its actions in seeking to browbeat the Donbass countries will almost certainly hasten its own final disintegration.
Russia has had an undercover presence in Donetsk and Lugansk for the past eight years, following the US-sponsored 2014 coup. The Russian presence has been at the invitation of the separatist leaderships of those republics. On Monday last, Russia formerly recognised both republics and sent peacekeeping forces to put an end to attacks by the Kiev government and its proxies, as well as continuous blockades of the republics’ economies, in a persistent and blatant flouting of agreements signed up to by all sides several years ago.
Russia claims Ukraine has reneged in its undertaking in the Minsk accords of 2016 to grant special status to Donetsk and Lugansk. Kiev has refused to sit down with the leaders of the two republics as per the terms of the Minsk agreements. Putin claims it is not interested in a peaceful solution, which sounds about right. Kiev is carrying out the orders of the UN, the US, the EU and NATO, all of which are intent upon starting a war somewhere or other — any war will do — to cover their own filthy tracks. Putin could have done what he did today on any other day of the past seven years — to far better effect. He did not initiate this episode.
Donetsk and Lugansk have the same legitimate claim to secede from Ukraine as Ireland had to secede from Britain a century ago. Russia’s actions are predicated on avoiding a full-scale war within the territory of Ukraine, and also with protecting itself from incursions by Western powers into its own neighbourhood. That's nuts. Sorry to say that as I admire a lot of what he has written over the years. That mixture of ignorance, half truths and propaganda will not age well I suspect.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Feb 28, 2022 11:14:28 GMT
Very good Analysis on the Ukraine Crisis.
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Post by kj on Feb 28, 2022 18:34:22 GMT
Waters has totally gone down the rabbit-hole, it seems.
I must admit to being pleasantly impressed and even a little proud of the strength of the western response. It may have taken Putin by surprise.
He has now in effect remilitarised Germany and added a new defence element to the EU.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 1, 2022 3:58:14 GMT
I happened to see a letter-to-the-editor today by someone of Anglo-Saxon name who remarked "to me it seems that the Russian request to keep NATO out of Ukraine and thus NATO nuclear weapons and rockets from their border seems eminently reasonable"....so different perspectives in the west do exist. Russia today may resemble fascism of the past more than traditional communism. For various reasons several now-canonized saints originally welcomed Mussolini's government in the beginning and one could be excused for seeing positives now in Russia's global independence and religious observance (at least compared to the rest of us). "The word came from Maynooth support the fascists, The men of cloth failed yet again....." "Bob Hillard was a Church of Ireland pastor.... From Derry came a brave young Christian Brother And side by side they fought and died in Spain"(for the comms that is) Christy Moore (Vive la Quinte Brigada) makes no secret of his own leaning,but,all the same,with some historicity shows a real possibility of various opinions. I once read a slip of an old Catholic paper,printed during the ascent of Franco's power that questioned the amount of killings by his side and the appropriateness of him publicly attending mass,notwithstanding what had been done to the Spanish church by the other side. Political opinion had never been as entirely black and white as sometimes thought. Of course opinions don't save lives, hopefully the international community can do this. I think a lot of conservatives in the West (me included) feel a certain sympathy for Russia because it seems to be standing up against the secularizing currents coming from the Western world right now, as well as the LGBT etc. agenda. And also from the perception that a multipolar world is better than a unipolar one, more resistant to cultural and ideological homogenization. I also think the alarm regarding potential NATO and EU membership seems understandable. And personally I am a Russophile anyway. Which is not to say invading another country's sovereign territory is justifiable at all. As Séamus says, I think we are all just hoping and praying for the least loss of human life now. One thought that comes to mind,when considering the West's moral bankruptcy and even issues like Ukraine's huge IVF surrogacy industry,is the story of Abraham defending Sodom,considered an insert by Bible scholars due to an apparent unconnectedness with the rest of the Genesis narrative,but an example of a leader deciding to be unprejudiced by the moral decay and self-destruction of the league he's decided to defend. Innocent Lot was a main concern but other fugitives were saved also. Who knows whether the four attacking kings didn't have higher moral authority in some ways? The sight of the usually more-spiritual Abraham leading in battle could almost seem like a possible inspiration for the Gandalf character, taking to his sword now and then, despite having deeper powers.
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Post by kj on Mar 1, 2022 7:11:43 GMT
For those labouring under the delusion that Russia is a bastion of "traditional values", it's worth pointing out that it has the highest abortion rate in the world, is in sharp demographic decline and only 6% of the population of "Holy Mother Russia" go to mass several times a month according to recent figures.
Its endemic social and political corruption is well known.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Mar 1, 2022 8:56:24 GMT
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 1, 2022 9:27:41 GMT
As I've been following this story and trying to catch up with it, this is pretty much how I view it now-- I might be wrong, as ever:
1) The invasion of Ukraine was a deplorable criminal act and completely unjustifiable. 2) I admire the people of Ukraine hugely for resisting as they have done. I don't know if I would be that courageous. (Incidentally, I haven't heard any feminists deploring the fact that only men are being told they have to stay and fight the Russians.) 3) I don't really see why Russian separatist regions in Ukraine don't have a right to secede. If Russian minorities there are celebrating, we surely have to ask why. 4) I think this crisis was precipitated by Western expansion towards Russia, both NATO and the E.U. Saying countries have a right to determine their own foreign policy is fair enough but I can totally understand why Russia felt encircled. Comparisons to the Cuban Missile Crisis seem legitimate. After all, Cuba had every right to allow Soviet missile bases on its territory by this logic. People like Peter Hitchens and John Mearsheimer have been saying this for years. I remember them saying it and it seemed plausible to me then. Putin's arguments in his speech that the West promised Russia NATO would not move eastwards, after the fall of the Soviet Union, and that he actually suggested NATO membership for Russia himself, but was shot down, seem relevant. I presume both those claims are true; I haven't investigated them. 5) The whole episode reinforces my distrust of supranational organizations. Military alliances and power blocs may keep peace in the short term but they always seem to cause war in the long-term. It reinforces my own desire to see Irexit.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Mar 1, 2022 9:47:49 GMT
As I've been following this story and trying to catch up with it, this is pretty much how I view it now-- I might be wrong, as ever: 1) The invasion of Ukraine was a deplorable criminal act and completely unjustifiable. 2) I admire the people of Ukraine hugely for resisting as they have done. I don't know if I would be that courageous. (Incidentally, I haven't heard any feminists deploring the fact that only men are being told they have to stay and fight the Russians.) 3) I don't really see why Russian separatist regions in Ukraine don't have a right to secede. If Russian minorities there are celebrating, we surely have to ask why. 4) I think this crisis was precipitated by Western expansion towards Russia, both Russia and the E.U. Saying countries have a right to determine their own foreign policy is fair enough but I can totally understand why Russia felt encircled. Comparisons to the Cuban Missile Crisis seem legitimate. After all, Cuba had every right to allow Soviet missile bases on its territory by this logic. People like Peter Hitchens and John Mearsheimer have been saying this for years. I remember them saying it and it seemed plausible to me then. Putin's arguments in his speech that the West promised Russia NATO would not move eastwards, after the fall of the Soviet Union, and that he actually suggested NATO membership for Russia himself, but was shot down, seem relevant. I presume both those claims are true; I haven't investigated them. 5) The whole episode reinforces my distrust of supranational organizations. Military alliances and power blocs may keep peace in the short term but they always seem to cause war in the long-term. It reinforces my own desire to see Irexit. You forgot to mention the revolution that was sponsored by the west which was a deplorable criminal act and completely unjustifiable.
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Post by cato on Mar 1, 2022 18:55:59 GMT
As I've been following this story and trying to catch up with it, this is pretty much how I view it now-- I might be wrong, as ever: 1) The invasion of Ukraine was a deplorable criminal act and completely unjustifiable. 2) I admire the people of Ukraine hugely for resisting as they have done. I don't know if I would be that courageous. (Incidentally, I haven't heard any feminists deploring the fact that only men are being told they have to stay and fight the Russians.) 3) I don't really see why Russian separatist regions in Ukraine don't have a right to secede. If Russian minorities there are celebrating, we surely have to ask why. 4) I think this crisis was precipitated by Western expansion towards Russia, both NATO and the E.U. Saying countries have a right to determine their own foreign policy is fair enough but I can totally understand why Russia felt encircled. Comparisons to the Cuban Missile Crisis seem legitimate. After all, Cuba had every right to allow Soviet missile bases on its territory by this logic. People like Peter Hitchens and John Mearsheimer have been saying this for years. I remember them saying it and it seemed plausible to me then. Putin's arguments in his speech that the West promised Russia NATO would not move eastwards, after the fall of the Soviet Union, and that he actually suggested NATO membership for Russia himself, but was shot down, seem relevant. I presume both those claims are true; I haven't investigated them. 5) The whole episode reinforces my distrust of supranational organizations. Military alliances and power blocs may keep peace in the short term but they always seem to cause war in the long-term. It reinforces my own desire to see Irexit. Maolsheachlann the last person to evoke the rights of linguistic minority groups to secede and join the motherland was Hitler I believe. Where would this doctrine end ? Could Irish Russian speakers demand and get a little piece of territory here? This doctrine would endanger Russians abroad who will now be seen as a dangerous fifth column.International borders are there for a reason and are enshrined in international law. Your proposal is basically nodding towards the notion of might is right. The Cuban example is not convincing either. You are aware that Fidel Castro wanted to actually use the Russian weapons during the Cuban missile crisis and was quite content to sacrifice his own people and most of the human race if Marxism would triumph? You also seem to see this war largely through a Russian perspective. Those countries who joined NATO freely asked to join because of their treatment as vassal states of Stalin. If Russia fears NATO it might ponder why so many of her neighbours fear her and seek to join NATO. RUssia has engaged in 4 wars on her former territories under Putin. He is a power hungry aggressive war criminal. Its sad to see so many on social media making excuses for him. Supranational organisations are largely a legacy of the disaster of World War Two. Peace in Europe is a precious thing and the most important benefit of organisations like the EU and NATO. I am a Eurocritic but I believe the EU has on balance been a good thing for us all particularly for Ireland which was an economic basket case for most of its independence prior to joining.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 1, 2022 19:41:57 GMT
As I've been following this story and trying to catch up with it, this is pretty much how I view it now-- I might be wrong, as ever: 1) The invasion of Ukraine was a deplorable criminal act and completely unjustifiable. 2) I admire the people of Ukraine hugely for resisting as they have done. I don't know if I would be that courageous. (Incidentally, I haven't heard any feminists deploring the fact that only men are being told they have to stay and fight the Russians.) 3) I don't really see why Russian separatist regions in Ukraine don't have a right to secede. If Russian minorities there are celebrating, we surely have to ask why. 4) I think this crisis was precipitated by Western expansion towards Russia, both NATO and the E.U. Saying countries have a right to determine their own foreign policy is fair enough but I can totally understand why Russia felt encircled. Comparisons to the Cuban Missile Crisis seem legitimate. After all, Cuba had every right to allow Soviet missile bases on its territory by this logic. People like Peter Hitchens and John Mearsheimer have been saying this for years. I remember them saying it and it seemed plausible to me then. Putin's arguments in his speech that the West promised Russia NATO would not move eastwards, after the fall of the Soviet Union, and that he actually suggested NATO membership for Russia himself, but was shot down, seem relevant. I presume both those claims are true; I haven't investigated them. 5) The whole episode reinforces my distrust of supranational organizations. Military alliances and power blocs may keep peace in the short term but they always seem to cause war in the long-term. It reinforces my own desire to see Irexit. Maolsheachlann the last person to evoke the rights of linguistic minority groups to secede and join the motherland was Hitler I believe. Where would this doctrine end ? Could Irish Russian speakers demand and get a little piece of territory here? This doctrine would endanger Russians abroad who will now be seen as a dangerous fifth column.International borders are there for a reason and are enshrined in international law. Your proposal is basically nodding towards the notion of might is right. The Cuban example is not convincing either. You are aware that Fidel Castro wanted to actually use the Russian weapons during the Cuban missile crisis and was quite content to sacrifice his own people and most of the human race if Marxism would triumph? You also seem to see this war largely through a Russian perspective. Those countries who joined NATO freely asked to join because of their treatment as vassal states of Stalin. If Russia fears NATO it might ponder why so many of her neighbours fear her and seek to join NATO. RUssia has engaged in 4 wars on her former territories under Putin. He is a power hungry aggressive war criminal. Its sad to see so many on social media making excuses for him. Supranational organisations are largely a legacy of the disaster of World War Two. Peace in Europe is a precious thing and the most important benefit of organisations like the EU and NATO. I am a Eurocritic but I believe the EU has on balance been a good thing for us all particularly for Ireland which was an economic basket case for most of its independence prior to joining. Those are good points, Cato. Perhaps I am seeing this war through a Russian perspective. I don't mean to. I've always been a Russophile and I have tended to take a somewhat positive view of Putin's Russia as a counterbalance to the globalizing West (although I was already aware of kj's points on abortion and church attendance, and that the "Orthodox resurgence" in Russia seems more about restoring churches than actually going to them). Also, perhaps I am going too far in my efforts not to be conditioned by the Western media. I did not in fact know that about Castro. My distrust of power blocs is of no recent vintage, I remember in a history examination in secondary schools (almost thirty years ago now) blaming Bismarck for the First World War since the delicate balance of power he bequeathed to his successor was so precarious in less expert hands. However, it's certainly a good point that so many countries sought to join NATO precisely because of their fear of Russia. And yes, it would be unmanageable if every linguistic minority was granted independence, although surely each claim should be judged on its merits.
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Post by kj on Mar 1, 2022 20:04:37 GMT
It is amazing indeed to see how many people online are viewing this conflict through the Russian lens and seemingly unthinkingly assuming that Ukraine should just do whatever Russia wants.
No analogy is perfect, but imagine if a 1950s far-right nationalist government in the UK decided to use Northern Ireland as a pretext for invading the Free State and merging it back into the UK. Would that be reasonable? Of course Lavrov himself used a similar analogy last Friday to justify Russia's actions!
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Post by cato on Mar 1, 2022 21:21:50 GMT
It is amazing indeed to see how many people online are viewing this conflict through the Russian lens and seemingly unthinkingly assuming that Ukraine should just do whatever Russia wants. No analogy is perfect, but imagine if a 1950s far-right nationalist government in the UK decided to use Northern Ireland as a pretext for invading the Free State and merging it back into the UK. Would that be reasonable? Of course Lavrov himself used a similar analogy last Friday to justify Russia's actions! I wonder is anti-Americanism so pervasive that huge numbers of Europeans can see no threats anywhere else. I am quite struck by the lack of anti war protests here on the same scale as the massive numbers who turned out to protest the US invasion of Iraq run by a genocidal military dictator. Most protests so far seem to be organised by Ukrainian emigres. David Quinn wrote an article on this phenomena in this week's Sunday Times. Similarly we get lots of explanations for Putins behaviour often omitting the simple fact that he freely choose this course of action. Not alone has he violated a weaker nation, he has undermined Russias own reputation and security, and is currently threatening global war which can only end in our destruction as a species. The Ukrainians and other East European nations were sacrificed in the past to Stalin . Many including many conservatives seem quite happy to do so again. I am old enough to remember when most conservatives were against the Kremlin!
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