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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 4:34:26 GMT
No time to comment, except that I am sure there is terrible lies and propaganda on both sides and it's having horrific effects. No-one is innocent here. I found this very left wing commentary especially helpful though, debunking both Russian and Western claims. I don't buy everything here, but I found it very worthwhile. Actually, I should say I've only seen the first 40 minutes or so, but it was, again, a particularly helpful 40 minutes or so. I think their focus is more genuinely "anti-war" than sympathy for either Putin or the West and that gives them a certain distance that not everyone has. (Of course, in other ways, they obviously have their own left-wing myopia, too.) EDIT: Strange! The video insert does not appear to work! Here is the link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAEybTns0Lg
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 4:46:37 GMT
It's hard to get through the Western propaganda to get at the Russian propaganda. My instinct is to say: "A plague on all their houses". I blame NATO and globalism for bringing the crisis about. Which doesn't justify Putin's actions. My instinct is always to side with the small nation. But does that mean we should side with the Ukraine or with the two new states Russia has recognized? The media says these are simply Russian puppet states but does that delegitimize them? [br I disagree entirely Maolsheachlann. NATO has been one of the most important organisations in ensuring European peace since 1949. The old saying it was designed to " keep the Germans down, the Russians out and the Americans in" has a lot of wisdom in it. We take that peace for granted at our peril. The NATO alliance is voluntary. Those East European nations who joined did so because of their experience under Stalinist oppression. Their occupation only ended in the early 1990s. I find it quite disturbing that their desire for security, sovereignty and independence is seen as some sort of threat against Russia.They choose to join an alliance that promises to defend them in the event of armed attack, ultimately with the threat of massive nuclear force. Putin is a sabre rattling ex KGB enthusiast for the Soviet empire. His behaviour in recent days is highly disturbing , erratic and menacing. No one in the West is threatening Russia .He openly threatens to attack his neighbours and to over turn international borders by force of arms. There is no room for moral equivalence here. The west is led by very weak leaders and is only emerging from a period of internal covid related paralysis. This is a deliberate attempt by a cynical bullying Putin to test an inept US administration to see how far he can go and what he can grab. The danger with this 1914 or 1938 power play is we live in a nuclear world . The stakes are much higher than back then. We need to pray sanity will prevail. That doesn't include appeasement or surrender to aggression. Cato, I think there are significant good points here. But I also no longer have the same faith in the West as you. You write: "No one in the West is threatening Russia." Well, yes, not in the obvious and horrifying sense of what Russia is doing. But can we really say this? I, myself, can't be be sure that the West isn't acting in profoundly threatening ways, even if they might be less obvious, more covert and buried by our own propaganda.
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 4:53:13 GMT
It is a sobering thought that Russia very recently flew warplanes past our territorial waters. Yes, I agree there is a kneejerk tendency on the right to side with Putin. Why is that sobering. The Brits and Americans do it all the time. Wasn't to long ago the British were shooting Priests and Killing Catholics. Stephen, I think what both Russia and the American dominated West are doing should be sobering. The American dominated West has a lot of blood on its hands, too. Far more, I would imagine, than we are led to believe.
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 5:01:53 GMT
A very interesting video about wokeness and a new Russiaphobi. Picks up some of the points you have discussed youtu.be/t3DrtDJBo5IObjecting to that vile lying thug in the Kremlin who has launched the first unprovoked shooting invasion in Europe since 1945 is not Russiaphobia. Oddly active I am … but I think there is both plenty of Russophobia around and that Putin is a "vile lying thug". Alas, I'm not sure that many of our Western leaders aren't vile, lying thugs either.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 2, 2022 7:04:47 GMT
It can also be kept in mind that church attendance in Eastern Rite areas can be a bit different to what we'd expect in an Irish- or Europe-influenced church with people arriving and leaving sacred liturgies,which can be longer,at various times and people putting a lot of emphasis on simply visiting churches for lighting candles and venerating icons, rather than strict Sunday attendance. The fact that PussyRiot chose to disrupt an orthodox church to protest the Putin administration shows how church,government and society are often mutually identified and could even be a complicated 'Spanish Civil War identification' situation.
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Post by cato on Mar 2, 2022 7:09:57 GMT
Objecting to that vile lying thug in the Kremlin who has launched the first unprovoked shooting invasion in Europe since 1945 is not Russiaphobia. Oddly active I am … but I think there is both plenty of Russophobia around and that Putin is a "vile lying thug". Alas, I'm not sure that many of our Western leaders aren't vile, lying thugs either. Roger I deliberately referred to Putin and not Russians in this way and I can stand over my remarks which frankly are pretty obvious. I do not believe he represents Russia particularly the young bewildered conscripts fighting his war for him. I have Russian/ Ukrainian family , friends and neighbours. One of the saddest sights was the departure of young Ukrainian men from Dublin airport in recent days to fight and die. Many Russuans are deeply shamed and horrified by the evil carried out in their name.
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 13:53:07 GMT
Oddly active I am … but I think there is both plenty of Russophobia around and that Putin is a "vile lying thug". Alas, I'm not sure that many of our Western leaders aren't vile, lying thugs either. Roger I deliberately referred to Putin and not Russians in this way and I can stand over my remarks which frankly are pretty obvious. I do not believe he represents Russia particularly the young bewildered conscripts fighting his war for him. I have Russian/ Ukrainian family , friends and neighbours. One of the saddest sights was the departure of young Ukrainian men from Dublin airport in recent days to fight and die. Many Russuans are deeply shamed and horrified by the evil carried out in their name. Cato, what I wrote there was not meant to argue with the heartbreaking and important points you make here. What I'm trying to sound here lies in my word "both". I think your assessment of Putin has considerable merit AND I think the "vile" and "lying" descriptors can be applied to a lot on the NATO side as well. I also do see Russophobia in our media for many years, but I was not imputing that in you. Sorry if it seemed that way!
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Post by cato on Mar 2, 2022 20:10:51 GMT
Roger I deliberately referred to Putin and not Russians in this way and I can stand over my remarks which frankly are pretty obvious. I do not believe he represents Russia particularly the young bewildered conscripts fighting his war for him. I have Russian/ Ukrainian family , friends and neighbours. One of the saddest sights was the departure of young Ukrainian men from Dublin airport in recent days to fight and die. Many Russuans are deeply shamed and horrified by the evil carried out in their name. Cato, what I wrote there was not meant to argue with the heartbreaking and important points you make here. What I'm trying to sound here lies in my word "both". I think your assessment of Putin has considerable merit AND I think the "vile" and "lying" descriptors can be applied to a lot on the NATO side as well. I also do see Russophobia in our media for many years, but I was not imputing that in you. Sorry if it seemed that way! No offense was taken and I appreciate your response. I don't think the west is perfect but like democracy itself is the least bad option on offer. Unfortunately much of modern democracy is divorced from virtue, the natural law and the divine which are all necessary to prevent democracy becoming tyrannical. And that's were Catholicism can help......
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 23:51:09 GMT
Cato, what I wrote there was not meant to argue with the heartbreaking and important points you make here. What I'm trying to sound here lies in my word "both". I think your assessment of Putin has considerable merit AND I think the "vile" and "lying" descriptors can be applied to a lot on the NATO side as well. I also do see Russophobia in our media for many years, but I was not imputing that in you. Sorry if it seemed that way! No offense was taken and I appreciate your response. I don't think the west is perfect but like democracy itself is the least bad option on offer. Unfortunately much of modern democracy is divorced from virtue, the natural law and the divine which are all necessary to prevent democracy becoming tyrannical. And that's were Catholicism can help…… Beautiful, Cato! And if you see my other post about a video I have in the works, said video refers to this same idea too. The need for Natural Law and the Church . . . Strange . . . (Not the preview I featured, but the upcoming video itself.)
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Post by rogerbuck on Mar 2, 2022 23:52:57 GMT
For Hobbes, Locke, Hume etc all prescind from this beauty . . .
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 3, 2022 10:24:14 GMT
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Post by kj on Mar 3, 2022 13:16:07 GMT
My own perspective is that however one interprets the background geo-political scene and wherever one apportions blame, it is ultimately Putin who has pulled the trigger and has unleashed a horrendous war claiming civilian lives, including many children.
Many people seem to talk of Putin and Russia as if they are some sort of frightened toddler lashing out at those who torment them. It should be remembered that Russia has significantly more nuclear warheads than any other country and has threatened to use them.
For all the talk of NATO on Russia's doorstep the idea that one day it would invade the country is ludicrous. Russia is a declining rust bucket of social corruption with an economy the size of Italy's. Besides, all the major war players have missiles that can be launched from anywhere within their territories, or from submarines, that can arrive at their targets within 15-45 minutes, so "being on the border" is less relevant than it may seem. For those obsessed with it, Russia - assuming it wins this conflict - will soon have troops parked at the southeastern corner of EU/Nato territory.
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Post by cato on Mar 3, 2022 14:34:36 GMT
We are definitely in one of those moments when feelings run high, and the Irish Times doesn't represent the nation but it's not a journal renowned for those non progressive views either. (I speak as someone who has long lamented the cute hoor attitude towards neutrality ,national sovereignty and defence in this country) This may herald a genuine mood shift. On another platform I noticed virtually every commentator condemning the "sheeple" believing the manufacturered media story on our TV screens. Most of the commentators there seemed also to have been anti vaccination enthusiasts.
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Post by kj on Mar 3, 2022 14:56:09 GMT
It's also interesting to note many of the same people who previously condemned the west for being weak, effeminate, liberal etc etc are now apparently outraged by the comparatively strong and united western response. No winning to be had for some, I guess.
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Post by cato on Mar 6, 2022 10:14:23 GMT
On a side note there are I believe 5 million or so catholics in communion with Rome in Ukraine who are suffering in the current war.
Ukraine was briefly mentioned in the Irish news when Aer Corps light planes flew out Irish couples and their surrogate sourced babies. There was no mention of the Ukrainian women involved who presumably were left behind.
It is customary to lament and condemn the trade of orphans to middle class couples here and to US couples in the 50s and 60s but we seem strangely blind to people today exploiting poorer foreign women to exercise their right to a child. No doubt there will be apologies in the Dail in 50 years time and editorials wondering how could people do this.
Apparently this practice banned in many places is progressive, at least in Ireland.
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