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Post by cato on Mar 7, 2022 13:05:07 GMT
The heart rendering refugee crisis in Ukraine is leading to millions fleeing literally under Russian bombardment. Estimates are that anything from 10,000 to 100,000 refugees will be settled in Ireland.
I am sympathetic to our international humanitarian obligations but these figures are simply astronomical. We have grave difficulties housing our 9000 homeless population. The tragic consequences of this wicked war have arrived on our door step.
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Post by Tomas on Mar 7, 2022 13:45:44 GMT
My own perspective is that however one interprets the background geo-political scene and wherever one apportions blame, it is ultimately Putin who has pulled the trigger and has unleashed a horrendous war claiming civilian lives, including many children. Many people seem to talk of Putin and Russia as if they are some sort of frightened toddler lashing out at those who torment them. It should be remembered that Russia has significantly more nuclear warheads than any other country and has threatened to use them. For all the talk of NATO on Russia's doorstep the idea that one day it would invade the country is ludicrous. Russia is a declining rust bucket of social corruption with an economy the size of Italy's. Besides, all the major war players have missiles that can be launched from anywhere within their territories, or from submarines, that can arrive at their targets within 15-45 minutes, so "being on the border" is less relevant than it may seem. For those obsessed with it, Russia - assuming it wins this conflict - will soon have troops parked at the southeastern corner of EU/Nato territory. Same view from here. The war is not right, and hopefully it will end soon. If not, there might be more of the same moves and even worse around the next corner!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 7, 2022 15:11:43 GMT
I just heard one of my colleagues tell another that someone has rammed a truck through the gate of the Russian embassy. They were both gleeful about it.
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Post by cato on Mar 7, 2022 17:23:09 GMT
I just heard one of my colleagues tell another that someone has rammed a truck through the gate of the Russian embassy. They were both gleeful about it. Its rather bizarre as it's a lorry from a supplier of Ecclesiastical wine, hosts and church bits and bobs. I wonder is this some form of militant catholic terrorism? Fr Ted was never this surreal. Meanwhile the Russian ambassador has started to spout international law at us. Its hard not to feel revolted by this blatant liar whose government threatens all and sundry with nuclear attack!
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Post by kj on Mar 9, 2022 10:33:52 GMT
My views on the immorality and criminality of this war have not changed, but I admit that Zelensky's constant demands for a No-fly zone are getting on my wick a little. I understand his desperation but he knows it would enflame and enlarge the conflict to catastrophic proportions. It is quite selfish of him to demand the west willingly does so.
Ukraine has been valiant, but I do think at this stage he would serve his people best by agreeing for Ukraine to be a neutral, non-aligned state with some sort of security guarantees that will have to be taken with a massive bag of salt. Otherwise, his people will only continue to suffer.
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Post by cato on Mar 9, 2022 11:27:02 GMT
My views on the immorality and criminality of this war have not changed, but I admit that Zelensky's constant demands for a No-fly zone are getting on my wick a little. I understand his desperation but he knows it would enflame and enlarge the conflict to catastrophic proportions. It is quite selfish of him to demand the west willingly does so. Ukraine has been valiant, but I do think at this stage he would serve his people best by agreeing for Ukraine to be a neutral, non-aligned state with some sort of security guarantees that will have to be taken with a massive bag of salt. Otherwise, his people will only continue to suffer. I agree Kj with the no fly zone demands. I think Zelensky knows his demands will not be met but is keeping them up for morale and to keep the important western aid continuing. There may have been a case to declare a no fly zone prior to the war as a deterrent but that opportunity has now gone. That of course would also be seen as provocation. The war seems to have been going relatively well from Ukraines point of view and badly from Putins. Zelinsky and Ukraine has shocked and surprised many with their resistance and defiance. They are out gunned strategically but their all out defeat and humiliation is not inevitable either.
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Post by kj on Mar 9, 2022 11:49:51 GMT
The war seems to have been going relatively well from Ukraines point of view and badly from Putins. Zelinsky and Ukraine has shocked and surprised many with their resistance and defiance. They are out gunned strategically but their all out defeat and humiliation is not inevitable either. Well I know opinions are a dime a dozen and I have tried to restrain myself from offering any as best I can, but the few military commentators I have looked at who seem level-headed seem to be in agreement that Russia has restrained itself to some sort of degree and that if it wanted it could ratchet up the assault by exponential amounts, including in particular the use of its airforce. In short, Russia could unleash greater horror if it chooses, hence my view that Ukraine might be best served by agreeing terms. Again, all said in full awareness that my opinions are of no more worth than any other person not in the loop of the small elite players who decide these things, ie 99.99% of people.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 9, 2022 11:51:45 GMT
I just heard one of my colleagues tell another that someone has rammed a truck through the gate of the Russian embassy. They were both gleeful about it. Its rather bizarre as it's a lorry from a supplier of Ecclesiastical wine, hosts and church bits and bobs. I wonder is this some form of militant catholic terrorism? Fr Ted was never this surreal. Meanwhile the Russian ambassador has started to spout international law at us. Its hard not to feel revolted by this blatant liar whose government threatens all and sundry with nuclear attack! In a past era it would have been a derogatory Spike Milligan-type joke- "Ireland's Major Supplier Blocked By Ukraine War",but there's possibly more people focusing on freefalling stock markets than altar wine in Ireland, or indeed anywhere, in today's world. How intertwined the earth is in 2022 even shows in the sports world,with Manchester United shedding a major Russian sponsor,the Champion League previously booked into a St Petersburg stadium named for Russia's biggest gas company and mention in Westminster of FIA boycotting the Russian Grand Prix. As quick as people are to label a conflict as a third world war, two developments,minor in themselves,are almost a reminder of the fall of the Third Reich- As the West needed the help of communist USSR then,Joe Biden now turns to almost-communist Venezuela to economically fight the current incarnation of Russia. USSR was soon to try blockading supply to Berlin's western enclave- I read an obituary of one of the heroic pilots who counteracted this this week,he died only recently. There probably won't be such strong symbols of empire coming out of Latin America any time soon but it's still something that was largely unforseen by the layman. And, while I'm not sure that the exit of McDonald's, Starbucks and Coca-Cola will do other than encourage Putin's objective, isn't this how we got Fanta?
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Post by cato on Mar 9, 2022 15:32:31 GMT
The war seems to have been going relatively well from Ukraines point of view and badly from Putins. Zelinsky and Ukraine has shocked and surprised many with their resistance and defiance. They are out gunned strategically but their all out defeat and humiliation is not inevitable either. Well I know opinions are a dime a dozen and I have tried to restrain myself from offering any as best I can, but the few military commentators I have looked at who seem level-headed seem to be in agreement that Russia has restrained itself to some sort of degree and that if it wanted it could ratchet up the assault by exponential amounts, including in particular the use of its airforce. In short, Russia could unleash greater horror if it chooses, hence my view that Ukraine might be best served by agreeing terms. Again, all said in full awareness that my opinions are of no more worth than any other person not in the loop of the small elite players who decide these things, ie 99.99% Not that Putin is reasonable or logical but flattening Ukraine or wiping it out is hardly consistent with his "peace keeping special mission either" but nothing he would do would surprise me. Ukraine had the misfortune of enduring the 1917 revolution, civil war, the Stalinist genocide and famine, Nazi occupation and more genocide and then communism again for more than 40 years. Its one of the unluckiest nations in the 20th century .I suspect they won't be in the mood to give up easily or soon.
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Post by cato on Mar 9, 2022 15:37:24 GMT
]And, while I'm not sure that the exit of McDonald's, Starbucks and Coca-Cola will do other than encourage Putin's objective, isn't this how we got Fanta?
[/quote]
One of Benedict xvi s few lapses in taste was his fondness for Fanta, a dubious surviving relic of the Nazi era.
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Post by kj on Mar 17, 2022 15:07:52 GMT
Well, I stand by my original condemnation of Putin for pulling the trigger with this war and leading to the deaths of many civilians and children.
However, I grant you that the other side may be nothing worth shouting about either. Zelensky's continued demands for a no-fly zone irritate me, as does the western media canonisation. The American media barracking for the NF Zone is, I must admit, making me wonder if the "vested interests" conspiracy theorists may be on to something, while of course knowing that big business is always ready to profit from war and eager for peace whenever it suits.
I would say that all the news coming from the negotiations seems to suggest that Putin will get what he wants: a neutral Ukraine. We can then get into all the mud-flinging as to whether this could and should have happened pre-war.
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Post by cato on Mar 17, 2022 16:13:17 GMT
Antaine Also, if so many people in the West would stop with their vile idle-worship of an incompetent moron who is stupidly getting his people killed - giving guns to randomers who use them to commit crimes, telling people to throw Molotov's at tanks which gets them gunned down in seconds - maybe they'd notice that this actually isn't all as it seems. And I don't say this as a Putin sycophant. I know the kind of person he is, and I don't put anyone on a pedestal.
But why don't we talk about the atrocities going on in Eastern Ukraine prior to all of this? (Which has been covered by even the likes of BBC in past years) Since when is the West so happy to cover-up for Nazis, like many in the Ukrainian forces? Yes, literal, self-described Nazis. Are we going to pretend we don't know Ukraine is an utterly corrupt country, and it's something we haven't known since the Hunter Biden scandals? Will we just pretend that the "bio research" labs built by the US in Ukraine, right on the Russian border, is nothing suspicious, despite US officials saying they're concerned what the Russians will do with the labs? Or is it "treasonous" to point out the fact that Ukrainian forces have been seen firing from civilian buildings which the Russians then fire back on, resulting in global outrage, not to dissimilar from the tactics of Hamas? Like the maternity ward that was bombed previously, of which there appears to be footage of Ukrainian soldiers taking over before it was bombed. Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
Finally, a word from one of the foreign volunteers who went to fight for Ukraine (assuming it embeds properly): <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">For those even remotely thinking about going over to Ukraine to volunteer, watch this shit first before you do. Please spread this around. <a href="https://t.co/Hxr69eVJn9">pic.twitter.com/Hxr69eVJn9</a></p>— 🏴🏴☠️🦝Ohana Kaczynski🦝🏴☠️🏴 (@kaczynskiohana) <a href="https://twitter.com/KaczynskiOhana/status/1503737123261800452?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 15, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Happy St. Patrick's day, everyone, world. [/quote]
I deleted the original message from Antaine as it contained a photo of refugees to Ireland with a cynical comment. The photo included 3 children and is pretty easy to identify given the small nature of Ireland. It was bordering on racist dog whistling.
I left the second part of his message above, which seems to be the usual whataboutery, nit picking and moral relativism used sadly by many on the right in an attempt to deflect from Putin's barbarism.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 18, 2022 11:29:22 GMT
I think I've seen the photo on Facebook. I don't see why we would assume Ukrainians can't be black. Personally I think "let's keep race out of it" is always a good approach.
I can't really speak to Antaine's other points, I don't know how true they are. I do suspect this situation is a lot more complex than it looks. But why would Ukrainians have wanted to provoke Russia, even if it did achieve international outrage? It seems crazy.
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Post by cato on Mar 18, 2022 12:58:38 GMT
I think I've seen the photo on Facebook. I don't see why we would assume Ukrainians can't be black. Personally I think "let's keep race out of it" is always a good approach. I can't really speak to Antaine's other points, I don't know how true they are. I do suspect this situation is a lot more complex than it looks. But why would Ukrainians have wanted to provoke Russia, even if it did achieve international outrage? It seems crazy. Whatever about discussing immigration concerns I think personalising it and sneering at individuals crosses a line of human decency and is unchristian. Our ancestors were subject to discrimination and abuse too not so long ago. It was irrelevant to the other points he was making too.
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Post by hilary on Mar 18, 2022 23:11:44 GMT
Just to pick up on something Antaine mentioned, here is the link to the BBC item in 2014 about the extreme, radical groups who, according to the BBC reporter, "kept up the pressure on Victor Yanukovych", who was then removed from office. bbc.in/3w4HxsIOne young man talks about having "a clean nation" and "Ukraine will be just for Ukrainians". This was covered on UK Column News last Monday (14/3) and is available on demand on their website along with a lot of other material which provides a good balance to the mainstream narrative. I don't think Ireland should be taking sides in this. Micheal Martin's comment that "we're not morally neutral" (to an English TV station) would not stand up to scrutiny given the contents of the BBC clip and if it is true that the Ukrainian government is allied with far-right, nazi groups. The Catholic Church here also welcomed the waiving of visa requirements for Ukrainians seeking refuge in Ireland - this seems very political to me. The Bishops talked about the "horrific bombardment, death, displacement and destruction in Ukraine" but according to the BBC clip from 2014, the people of Kiev even then were having a hard time, with the city effectively being policed by gangs. Putin seems to be directing his operations at military installations and with some analysis mightn't it qualify as a just war if he is doing that and preventing further loss of life? There are long lines of cars along safe exit corridors. I wonder why some people can stay and others have to flee.
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