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Post by cato on Mar 19, 2022 11:58:20 GMT
Just to pick up on something Antaine mentioned, here is the link to the BBC item in 2014 about the extreme, radical groups who, according to the BBC reporter, "kept up the pressure on Victor Yanukovych", who was then removed from office. bbc.in/3w4HxsIOne young man talks about having "a clean nation" and "Ukraine will be just for Ukrainians". This was covered on UK Column News last Monday (14/3) and is available on demand on their website along with a lot of other material which provides a good balance to the mainstream narrative. I don't think Ireland should be taking sides in this. Micheal Martin's comment that "we're not morally neutral" (to an English TV station) would not stand up to scrutiny given the contents of the BBC clip and if it is true that the Ukrainian government is allied with far-right, nazi groups. The Catholic Church here also welcomed the waiving of visa requirements for Ukrainians seeking refuge in Ireland - this seems very political to me. The Bishops talked about the "horrific bombardment, death, displacement and destruction in Ukraine" but according to the BBC clip from 2014, the people of Kiev even then were having a hard time, with the city effectively being policed by gangs. Putin seems to be directing his operations at military installations and with some analysis mightn't it qualify as a just war if he is doing that and preventing further loss of life? There are long lines of cars along safe exit corridors. I wonder why some people can stay and others have to flee. Its rather strange that so many on the Irish right (and far left) adopt a pro Russian line on this war dragging up red herrings and indulging in whataboutery on a colossal skill when a neutral country has been cruelly invaded by a nuclear armed dictator. The same dictator has threatened the first strike use of nuclear weapons. Hilary- claiming Putin is somehow engaging in a just war is perverse in the extreme. There seems to be an attitude that Russias feelings of insecurity ( no matter how objectively ridiculous) trump the rights of the East European states conquered by Stalin and betrayed at Yalta by the West. Once apon a time the right believed in freedom and security for all nations in Europe and not merely the biggest.
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Post by Antaine on Mar 19, 2022 12:16:06 GMT
Perhaps I should have clarified that my comments about the Russia-Ukraine situation were not aimed at the members of this forum, as much as they were about the general attitude people seem to have. In that case, if anyone took my words as aggression towards them, my apologies.
Will that said, Cato, the picture in question (along with another one) was originally from a news website. I don't remember the name of it now - the Donegal something or another. And no, it's not racist to point out the fact that when you ask people to take in Ukrainian refugees, they will be expecting actual Ukrainians. Since Ukraine is the only home for Ukrainians, that would make the most sense. For e.g., why do you thinks Jews in Ukraine are fleeing to Israel, as opposed to the the rest of Europe? We even had it conceded on this forum here in the not too distant past, that people whose ancestry is tied to another country will often take interest in said country. Many times they might often want to return at some point, and their race will be an advantage in helping with that. To say any of this is irrelevant is a lie. But if you still insist that I'm stirring an unnecessary racial controversy, then perhaps you can explain the situation of the Ukrainian girl who was raped by two Ukrainian citizens (Iraqi and Nigerian.)
Also, what is whataboutery other than a cheap way of saying "No! Don't hold me to my own standards. Stop looking at my hypocrisy at look at this damned thing over here"? To say that anything I said was nit-picking - really? So if many Russian atrocities turn out to be actually carried out by Ukrainians or are carried out on civilian locations that were emptied of civilians and replaced with Ukrainian soldiers - that's a nit-pick? If not US has strange labs in Ukraine that they're doing God-knows-what with - that's a nit-pick. Yes, I suppose it's very convenient for people on one side to say that pointing out false accusations or suspicious behaviours is just a "nit-pick". And that's exactly why we have the problems we do in the first place.
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Post by Antaine on Mar 19, 2022 12:18:00 GMT
How neutral is Ukraine exactly, if the US has bio-labs there, and Hunter Biden is having illegitimate dealings with officials, only achievable due to his father's position in the Obama administration?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 19, 2022 12:21:02 GMT
I think people are so used to the media lying to them about subjects such as the Catholic Church, Islamic terrorism, Covid, same-sex adoption, Donald Trump, Brexit, immigration etc. that it's only natural to seriously question any media narrative. It doesn't automatically mean it's false but it makes the suspicion very natural.
I'm fairly agnostic on this subject myself. Because I've been reading Peter Hitchens for years, and respect his record of being right about things, I tend to go with his anaylsis; that the situation is complex, the West has been irresponsible in provoking Russia for years, but Russia is still very much to blame for attacking a sovereign country.
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Post by cato on Mar 19, 2022 15:05:26 GMT
How neutral is Ukraine exactly, if the US has bio-labs there, and Hunter Biden is having illegitimate dealings with officials, only achievable due to his father's position in the Obama administration? Neutral in international law and in not having military allies. This was guaranteed by Russia in 1994 when Ukraine (rather foolishly) abandoned the 4th largest nuclear arsenal in the world in return for Russian security guarantees. A nuclear armed Ukraine would not have been attacked a few weeks ago for some strange reason. A US funded bio lab has no relevance to a countries neutrality. I assume Ireland's large pharmaceutical industry has received US funding or assistance in the past.
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Post by Starlight on Mar 19, 2022 22:25:58 GMT
I think people are so used to the media lying to them about subjects such as the Catholic Church, Islamic terrorism, Covid, same-sex adoption, Donald Trump, Brexit, immigration etc. that it's only natural to seriously question any media narrative. It doesn't automatically mean it's false but it makes the suspicion very natural. I'm fairly agnostic on this subject myself. Because I've been reading Peter Hitchens for years, and respect his record of being right about things, I tend to go with his anaylsis; that the situation is complex, the West has been irresponsible in provoking Russia for years, but Russia is still very much to blame for attacking a sovereign country. How has the West been provoking Russia? In the years leading up attacking Ukraine, the rest of Europe had underspent on its militaries, while Russia disproportionately built up its own. The Germans were happy to trade and buy Russian gas ignoring the internal murder and oppression, the polonium and novichok poisonings, the attack on Georgia.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 19, 2022 23:58:08 GMT
By refusing to rule out the further eastward expansion of NATO, despite assurances the Russians say they were given after the fall of the Soviet Union. There are endless articles online "fact-checking" this (ha!) but it seems clear that Russian leaders were referencing the assurances from the early nineties. I don't believe this came from nowhere.
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Post by Séamus on Mar 20, 2022 6:13:35 GMT
How neutral is Ukraine exactly, if the US has bio-labs there, and Hunter Biden is having illegitimate dealings with officials, only achievable due to his father's position in the Obama administration? Neutral isn't always uninvolved either, as my mother's family found out when their North Strand house was bombed, possibly in retaliation for Dublin sending aid to Belfast or allowing American boats to dock. Many think that Churchill was too blame also. Brendan Behan mentions international POWs when detailing his own detention for paramilitary involvement. As a child, my father witnessed one English deserter being arrested in Phoenix Park. The words of Paddy McGinnity's Goat show that some anti-German fears did exist at the time.
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Post by Antaine on Mar 20, 2022 9:32:40 GMT
How neutral is Ukraine exactly, if the US has bio-labs there, and Hunter Biden is having illegitimate dealings with officials, only achievable due to his father's position in the Obama administration? Neutral in international law and in not having military allies. This was guaranteed by Russia in 1994 when Ukraine (rather foolishly) abandoned the 4th largest nuclear arsenal in the world in return for Russian security guarantees. A nuclear armed Ukraine would not have been attacked a few weeks ago for some strange reason. A US funded bio lab has no relevance to a countries neutrality. I assume Ireland's large pharmaceutical industry has received US funding or assistance in the past. Yet, I don't think the US would be announcing their concerns about said pharmaceutical companies falling into Russian hands, due to the potential for Russia to use them for nefarious means. This is what the US expressed about the ones in Ukraine though. They said they feared Russia would use the bio-labs to carry out some sort of attack, so what exactly were the US doing in Ukraine that supposedly has them so on edge about the Russians taking hold of said labs? I suppose at this point we might never know the truth. Anything the Russians say will be declared Kremlin propaganda, which it may or may not be, while we will be expected to take everything the Biden regime says at face-value, as usual. To get to the point, if it turns out the US has been developing something dangerous bordering on a bio-weapon in Ukraine, does this not suggest Ukraine is subtly a mere puppet of the US? Do you think Irish people would ever tolerate the US carrying out such projects on our shores? It's one thing to use Ireland as a launch pad; it's another to use us as a factory for producing weapons of war. And then again, there is the situation of Hunter Biden's corrupt dealings with Ukraine which were due to his father's position in the Obama administration. If Ukraine was truly so free of US influence, why were the Biden's able to get away with such things? Cato, I appreciate you feel strongly about what Russia has done. However, while you accuse people of gushing over Putin because they don't immediately condemn him, you fall into the same traps that the Left uses against people all the time. I have made it clear I don't idolise Putin, but it seems clear to me that this situation is not as simple as Russia bad, everyone else good. All of the things the US is accusing Russia of, the US has an abysmal record of itself; and not in the far flung past, but in only recent memory, a memory which includes Joe Biden. That isn't whataboutery, that's called holding hypocrites to account for their own actions. If you don't do that, then why would you be surprised that the US thinks it can do whatever it wants? I, for one, am fed up of the US' lies, hypocrisy, and constant power-grabs; and more so tired of them getting a pass for it all because "Wait, but there's someone more evil and dangerous." And I'm not even sure the last part is true. If we're going to hold regimes to account for crimes and atrocities, then let's do it consistently.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 20, 2022 10:48:02 GMT
I must admit I've never really understood the problem with "whataboutery".
If, for instance, you say that the Catholic Church isn't alone when it comes to child sex abuses-- that pretty much every institution in society was implicated-- then I don't think it should be dismissed as whataboutery. It doesn't let the Church off the hook one little bit. But it does show that the singling out is selective.
In the same way, I've never understood why something can be dismissed as a "slippery slope argument" or a "conspiracy theory". Some conspiracy theories are real; some slippery slopes are real, demonstrably so. (Abortion legislation in Britain, for instance.) Perhaps these terms might be an orange light, but I don't consider them a red light.
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Post by cato on Mar 20, 2022 12:17:04 GMT
I must admit I've never really understood the problem with "whataboutery". If, for instance, you say that the Catholic Church isn't alone when it comes to child sex abuses-- that pretty much every institution in society was implicated-- then I don't think it should be dismissed as whataboutery. It doesn't let the Church off the hook one little bit. But it does show that the singling out is selective. In the same way, I've never understood why something can be dismissed as a "slippery slope argument" or a "conspiracy theory". Some conspiracy theories are real; some slippery slopes are real, demonstrably so. (Abortion legislation in Britain, for instance.) Perhaps these terms might be an orange light, but I don't consider them a red light. In the present context of a savage war which will impact on billions and which could end the human race the whataboutery is simple deflection from the horrors at hand. There are probably a variety of reasons for that. On a practical level when we discuss any issue whataboutery moves us off the topic and introduces all sorts of alternative roads, cul de sacs and roundabouts that muddy the waters and fail to address the issue in question. Effectively Putin who bears full responsibility for the current slaughter is excused or his guilt minimised.
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Post by cato on Mar 20, 2022 12:20:59 GMT
How neutral is Ukraine exactly, if the US has bio-labs there, and Hunter Biden is having illegitimate dealings with officials, only achievable due to his father's position in the Obama administration? Neutral isn't always uninvolved either, as my mother's family found out when their North Strand house was bombed, possibly in retaliation for Dublin sending aid to Belfast or allowing American boats to dock. Many think that Churchill was too blame also. Brendan Behan mentions international POWs when detailing his own detention for paramilitary involvement. As a child, my father witnessed one English deserter being arrested in Phoenix Park. The words of Paddy McGinnity's Goat show that some anti-German fears did exist at the time. The North Stand bombings were most likely a mistake, the Heinkel bomber guilty of killing the locals drifted off course from the raids on the UK. The West Germans paid compensation in the 1960s.
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Post by cato on Mar 20, 2022 12:33:14 GMT
br] A US funded bio lab has no relevance to a countries neutrality. I assume Ireland's large pharmaceutical industry has received US funding or assistance in the past.[/quote]Yet, I don't think the US would be announcing their concerns about said pharmaceutical companies falling into Russian hands, due to the potential for Russia to use them for nefarious means. This is what the US expressed about the ones in Ukraine though. They said they feared Russia would use the bio-labs to carry out some sort of attack, so what exactly were the US doing in Ukraine that supposedly has them so on edge about the Russians taking hold of said labs? I suppose at this point we might never know the truth. Anything the Russians say will be declared Kremlin propaganda, which it may or may not be, while we will be expected to take everything the Biden regime says at face-value, as usual.
To get to the point, if it turns out the US has been developing something dangerous bordering on a bio-weapon in Ukraine, does this not suggest Ukraine is subtly a mere puppet of the US? Do you think Irish people would ever tolerate the US carrying out such projects on our shores? It's one thing to use Ireland as a launch pad; it's another to use us as a factory for producing weapons of war. And then again, there is the situation of Hunter Biden's corrupt dealings with Ukraine which were due to his father's position in the Obama administration. If Ukraine was truly so free of US influence, why were the Biden's able to get away with such things?
Cato, I appreciate you feel strongly about what Russia has done. However, while you accuse people of gushing over Putin because they don't immediately condemn him, you fall into the same traps that the Left uses against people all the time. I have made it clear I don't idolise Putin, but it seems clear to me that this situation is not as simple as Russia bad, everyone else good. All of the things the US is accusing Russia of, the US has an abysmal record of itself; and not in the far flung past, but in only recent memory, a memory which includes Joe Biden. That isn't whataboutery, that's called holding hypocrites to account for their own actions. If you don't do that, then why would you be surprised that the US thinks it can do whatever it wants?
I, for one, am fed up of the US' lies, hypocrisy, and constant power-grabs; and more so tired of them getting a pass for it all because "Wait, but there's someone more evil and dangerous." And I'm not even sure the last part is true. If we're going to hold regimes to account for crimes and atrocities, then let's do it consistently. [/quote]
Antaine there is no consistency in international justice this side of eternity.No country on earth has a clean historical record . That's a lesson in history. We in the West Live under American hegemony and protection. I am well away of her grievous flaws but I wouldn't swap it for the alternatives on offer - Putins dictatorship or Xis totalitarian nightmare. American decline will lead to a more dangerous world.
The issue of bio weapon labs is a red herring in my view. They do exist largely for research and providing antidotes to diseases and biological weapons. Most countries do not use them as they are simply indiscriminate and harm everyone regardless. I haven't researched the Biden connection as much as you but will when I get time.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 20, 2022 13:52:18 GMT
br] A US funded bio lab has no relevance to a countries neutrality. I assume Ireland's large pharmaceutical industry has received US funding or assistance in the past. Yet, I don't think the US would be announcing their concerns about said pharmaceutical companies falling into Russian hands, due to the potential for Russia to use them for nefarious means. This is what the US expressed about the ones in Ukraine though. They said they feared Russia would use the bio-labs to carry out some sort of attack, so what exactly were the US doing in Ukraine that supposedly has them so on edge about the Russians taking hold of said labs? I suppose at this point we might never know the truth. Anything the Russians say will be declared Kremlin propaganda, which it may or may not be, while we will be expected to take everything the Biden regime says at face-value, as usual. To get to the point, if it turns out the US has been developing something dangerous bordering on a bio-weapon in Ukraine, does this not suggest Ukraine is subtly a mere puppet of the US? Do you think Irish people would ever tolerate the US carrying out such projects on our shores? It's one thing to use Ireland as a launch pad; it's another to use us as a factory for producing weapons of war. And then again, there is the situation of Hunter Biden's corrupt dealings with Ukraine which were due to his father's position in the Obama administration. If Ukraine was truly so free of US influence, why were the Biden's able to get away with such things? Cato, I appreciate you feel strongly about what Russia has done. However, while you accuse people of gushing over Putin because they don't immediately condemn him, you fall into the same traps that the Left uses against people all the time. I have made it clear I don't idolise Putin, but it seems clear to me that this situation is not as simple as Russia bad, everyone else good. All of the things the US is accusing Russia of, the US has an abysmal record of itself; and not in the far flung past, but in only recent memory, a memory which includes Joe Biden. That isn't whataboutery, that's called holding hypocrites to account for their own actions. If you don't do that, then why would you be surprised that the US thinks it can do whatever it wants? I, for one, am fed up of the US' lies, hypocrisy, and constant power-grabs; and more so tired of them getting a pass for it all because "Wait, but there's someone more evil and dangerous." And I'm not even sure the last part is true. If we're going to hold regimes to account for crimes and atrocities, then let's do it consistently. [/quote] I agree about America. Whatever its faults, it's far, far better than the alternatives. Antaine there is no consistency in international justice this side of eternity.No country on earth has a clean historical record . That's a lesson in history. We in the West Live under American hegemony and protection. I am well away of her grievous flaws but I wouldn't swap it for the alternatives on offer - Putins dictatorship or Xis totalitarian nightmare. American decline will lead to a more dangerous world. The issue of bio weapon labs is a red herring in my view. They do exist largely for research and providing antidotes to diseases and biological weapons. Most countries do not use them as they are simply indiscriminate and harm everyone regardless. I haven't researched the Biden connection as much as you but will when I get time.[/quote]
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Post by kj on Mar 20, 2022 19:46:52 GMT
I made my feelings about the invasion clear on this forum at the start, namely it is an international crime worthy of the deepest moral condemnation and so on.
However, I don't think there's anything wrong with having it every which way, and I have no problem with whataboutery either.
So I have no problem believing
A) The war is a crime and Putin a tyrant.
B) Ukraine is no great shakes and while I admire their resistance, it seems their polity is also steeped in fraud and corruption. Plus the existence of far-right extremist military forces seems undeniable.
C) The condemnation from western powers can be both genuine and epically hypocritical, given the behaviour of western elites over the decades.
In particular with C, I thought it laughable to see Gordon Brown call yesterday for a Nuremberg-Style trial for Putin. The same Brown who was Blair's faithful No.2 in the cheerleading, build-up and execution of the Iraq war that led to around a million dead.
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