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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 29, 2021 18:24:44 GMT
Shouldn't any law be 1) enforceable and 2) Have a substantial amount of support or at least willingness to comply? Passing laws will never resurrect Irish without a popular will. Only a cultural revival will achieve that. Coercion tends to rub the Irish up the wrong way eventually. the unfortunate thing about language is that one person cannot shift it; i cannot suddenly decide that I want to speak a completly different language, and just do it; i loose my ability to be understood if others do not shift; that is why measures like that are usefull; they make more people do the shift at once; I should add that the use of coercian and law is a nessecary evil to me in this case; I would rather not use it, but I don't see any other realistic way to achieve this essential goal of saving and restoring our indigenous language One person can shift language usage. In work I've started writing my emails bilingually in Irish and English, Irish first. Many people respond in Irish at least partially. Attitudes change in small incremental ways. Whether Irish can be restored as the first national language by such piecemeal measures is questionable, but I think compulsion is even less likely. There would be an uproar, as Cato points out.
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Post by cato on Oct 29, 2021 21:27:11 GMT
We Irish do seem to have a fondness for compulsion though. It may be a colonial hangover copying the tactics of the British, which would be ironic given all the talk about freeing Ireland.
During the Covid emergency it was interesting to see many of our liberal compatriots cheer on all sorts of draconian restrictions , usually ones that primarily affected other people.
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Post by Tomas on Nov 1, 2021 16:28:47 GMT
Sidenote addressed to the rubric of this thread: Recently in a talk with chief editor at Crisis Magazine, Ulster-related writer Joseph Pearce mentioned the book "Rebuilding of Russia" as a prime introduction to Alexander Sozhenitzjin (wrong spelling) and his relevance to the current crisis of Europe and the US. The whole talk over 45 minutes or so was basically all about the relevance of this Russian dissident to our times now in the West. Pearce interviewed him late in life and wrote one of his biographies on this man, critic of totalitarian State and a promotor of everyone´s right to fair choices built on conscience.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 1, 2021 18:44:25 GMT
part of the reason i have suggested measures that may seem harsh is that the state has been trying to use less coercive measures to restore irish for almost 100 years now; and there is some concern that it might have no native speakers left within another century; That should not be allowed to happen; so on this; if reviving the language is not done correctly it might lead to Irish dying; so I am willing to do absolutely anything that will restore the language, as we might loose our chance to save it if we don't go far enough; in such a scenario, going too far is preferable to not doing enough; that, combined with the facts about non coercive measures not restoring it; has made me feel that every step that can be taken to help Irish must be undertaken; even a measure that is not likely to work, I am going to do if it won't make things work; I hope this helps even those who disagree with me at least see the thought process behind why i advocate the militant and authoritarian re-imposition of the Irish language on our society
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 1, 2021 19:52:07 GMT
part of the reason i have suggested measures that may seem harsh is that the state has been trying to use less coercive measures to restore irish for almost 100 years now; and there is some concern that it might have no native speakers left within another century; That should not be allowed to happen; so on this; if reviving the language is not done correctly it might lead to Irish dying; so I am willing to do absolutely anything that will restore the language, as we might loose our chance to save it if we don't go far enough; in such a scenario, going too far is preferable to not doing enough; that, combined with the facts about non coercive measures not restoring it; has made me feel that every step that can be taken to help Irish must be undertaken; even a measure that is not likely to work, I am going to do if it won't make things work; I hope this helps even those who disagree with me at least see the thought process behind why i advocate the militant and authoritarian re-imposition of the Irish language on our society I think the concentration on the State as the instrument of revival might be the problem.
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Post by cato on Nov 1, 2021 21:14:19 GMT
[quote I think the concentration on the State as the instrument of revival might be the problem. [/quote]
Its a very modern Irish phenomena to expect the government to do everything and to idolise the state. Its not a very Conservative thing either.
Connacht these ideas aren't particularly radical - controversial perhaps .... Even if we were all to speak Irish and only Irish from tomorrow this country would still be profoundly progressive and secularist leaning. We have discussed language revival here before and it is no longer the key magic bullet that will restore the nation.
I do hope for a renewal of Irish patriotism and national spirit . Unfortunately at present it is being sucked vampire like by the Sinn Fein charlatans. That's where many nationally minded voters are drifting to.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 2, 2021 10:41:53 GMT
I do think the revival of the Irish language would be worthwhile purely on its own account. I don't see it in terms of achieving anything else...I've always been very dubious of claims that it would liberate some kind of submerged national character or genius.
But I still think that looking to the state to revive it is a mistake-- even if it could be induced to do so. I'm all in favour of compulsory Irish in schools, and for the funding of Irish language media through the television license (something I think Irish conservatives tend to forget about when they want public sector broadcasting scrapped), but there's a limit to what the state can do.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 2, 2021 14:14:57 GMT
I've just been reading about Luxenbourgh on Wikiepdia. It always puzzles me that such a small country should be so enthusiastically pro-European. Obviously there are economic benefits to having so many EU institutions located there, but at the same time, surely a small country like this must fear for its culture in a European super-state.
Apparently it has a very high rate of immigration but learning Luxembourgish is required for naturalization.
We can't really demand immigrants learn Irish as most of us don't know it or use it ourselves. IF we had revived Irish after independence, then doubtless we would be a lot less vulnerable to cultural erosion through immigration.
Regarding state promotion of Irish; it's interesting to me that the Gaelic Revival happened under British rule, with a government that was not particularly sympathetic to revival. That was the real growth-time for the Gaelic League. After independence was achieved, membership of the Gaelic League dropped by ninety per cent.
I have sometimes heard people jokingly suggest that the best way to revive Irish would be to suppress it.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 2, 2021 17:07:57 GMT
i understand if there were an easy method of doing this, we would have already done it probably; I could move on to some issues besides language; I have proposals on topics from monuments, to who deserves citzenship, to immigration, to the old gaelic nobility, to the constitution, to religion, to many other things; if anyone accuses me of not being radical i could always get back to talking about anglicans; not that i am nessecarily going to do that
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Post by cato on Nov 2, 2021 20:42:18 GMT
i understand if there were an easy method of doing this, we would have already done it probably; I could move on to some issues besides language; I have proposals on topics from monuments, to who deserves citzenship, to immigration, to the old gaelic nobility, to the constitution, to religion, to many other things; if anyone accuses me of not being radical i could always get back to talking about anglicans; not that i am nessecarily going to do that That was naughty and we will not speak of that subject again. I don't object to whatever terminology you use but the title of the thread is a bit misleading. Clickbait perhaps? Can we talk about monuments?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 2, 2021 21:34:36 GMT
The tendency of many on the right to resort to dreams of ruling by decree reminds me of all the kids who got frustrated trying to solve the Rubik's cube and decided to take it apart and put it back together.
You can tell I'm an eighties kid.
Connacht, I see the appeal and perhaps even the usefulness of "If I were king" exercises, but you can't really combine it with appeals to pragmatism and realism.
Sometimes I think we fail to appreciate just how impressive it is that we've managed to preserve the Irish language as much as we have. Isn't it better to build on that?
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Post by cato on Nov 2, 2021 22:33:13 GMT
The tendency of many on the right to resort to dreams of ruling by decree reminds me of all the kids who got frustrated trying to solve the Rubik's cube and decided to take it apart and put it back together. You can tell I'm an eighties kid. Connacht, I see the appeal and perhaps even the usefulness of "If I were king" exercises, but you can't really combine it with appeals to pragmatism and realism. Sometimes I think we fail to appreciate just how impressive it is that we've managed to preserve the Irish language as much as we have. Isn't it better to build on that? Yes. Irish could have died out entirely like Cornish and the myriad of other extinct minority languages. Perhaps like the Catholic faith it will decline so that only a faithful remnant will speak it until the cultural tide changes? On the positive side we have Irish speaking media and a modern Irish literature too along with music and dancing. And Gaelic games which is the cultural success of the last 100 years. Its far from being perfect but its not all desolation either. I suspect we will only have a National cultural revival as part of an eventual international reaction against globalism. Of course we will probably be the last outpost of globalism before we swing to the opposite extreme!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 3, 2021 12:59:10 GMT
Connacht, I can't help teasing you a bit because your ideas seem a bit far-fetched. Apologies, I don't mean it maliciously. And to be fair all of us here would be seen as crackpots by a lot of people just for holding traditional conservative views. Thank you for contributing.
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Post by cato on Nov 3, 2021 19:49:48 GMT
Connacht, I can't help teasing you a bit because your ideas seem a bit far-fetched. Apologies, I don't mean it maliciously. And to be fair all of us here would be seen as crackpots by a lot of people just for holding traditional conservative views. Thank you for contributing. I would like to second that remark Connacht. Any disagreement here is generally fraternal and focuses on the message and not the man/woman. We agree on most fundamental things.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 5, 2021 8:16:32 GMT
i understand if there were an easy method of doing this, we would have already done it probably; I could move on to some issues besides language; I have proposals on topics from monuments, to who deserves citzenship, to immigration, to the old gaelic nobility, to the constitution, to religion, to many other things; if anyone accuses me of not being radical i could always get back to talking about anglicans; not that i am nessecarily going to do that That was naughty and we will not speak of that subject again. I don't object to whatever terminology you use but the title of the thread is a bit misleading. Clickbait perhaps? Can we talk about monuments? Tell me more about the Anglicans proposal
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