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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 9, 2021 19:45:58 GMT
I don't think all history should be celebrated, but I don't think leaving a statue in place ncessarily celebrates its subject. It commemorates it. And if the statue is old enough, it is itself history. The funny thing about Hitler is that there never were very many statues to him, even during the Nazi era. All history is a mix of good and bad. Gaelic Ireland wasn't the most morally upstanding place in the world, what with constant internecine warfare, slavery, and human sacrifice. I firmly believe that, if the roles were reversed, the Irish would have colonized and repressed the English just as enthusiastically. We are all under the weight of original sin. Given that, I say we should just preserve all monuments and accept that history is a complicated business. commemeration is tricky to distinguish from celebration. and gaelic Ireland was several steps more civilized then anyone else in medevil europe. where else was the death penalty avoided for first offences, where else could you file lawsuits against kings? who wrote down their vernacular language centuries before anyone else in europe bothered to write anything but greek and latin. the importent thing about gaelic ireland was that all the bad things about it were universal in its time and place; but many of the good things were unique to it at that time. also i will note that you dodged the core substance of the question on my example, if there were statues of hitler would you agree germany should take them down? Personally I would be against taking any statues down, including statues of Hitler.
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Post by cato on Nov 9, 2021 20:38:44 GMT
I am not talking about the IRA specifically, Iam simply refering to things like demolition of monuments to british figures I hope you are going to spare Wellington's obelisk in the Phoenix Park! Wellington is of course the last Irish born UK Prime Minister who helped destroy the French enslaved Euro state of the 19th century! A hero of Eurosceptics everywhere!
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 9, 2021 20:51:12 GMT
well anyway, another policy i want to pursue is reducing every single anglican to poverty; in order to destroy the legacy of the protestent assendency
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Post by cato on Nov 9, 2021 21:05:04 GMT
commemeration is tricky to distinguish from celebration. and gaelic Ireland was several steps more civilized then anyone else in medevil europe.
Cato
This notion that every historical event that we remember is a "celebration" is mischievous and weasally. No one celebrates the 1840s famine or the Great War yet they are commemorated regularly with respect. We have a proud cultural heritage intrinsically bound up with Christianty. Ireland was for a period one of the main potposts of respect for learning particularly classical Greek and Latin learning but a lot of pap has also been spouted about how the entire island was almost one vast pious monastery.
where else was the death penalty avoided for first offences, where else could you file lawsuits against kings?
Cato Brehon law had no police force. I wonder how that worked out in reality? The Irish annals have long lists of noble families slaughtering each other. No need for a death penalty if you just cut out recourse to the law .Christian saints introduced canonical codes to vainly try and stop this fraticidal slaughter on several occasions.
who wrote down their vernacular language centuries before anyone else in europe bothered to write anything but greek and latin.
Cato
Christian monks in Ireland recorded most of what we have after the Norman conquest when there seemed to be a vogue for recording antiquarian stories etc . Also happened in England and Wales. This group of monastic Scribes were a very small untypical group and doesn't mean the country itself was in any way morally superior. Not that there was much competition in Europe between the fall of Rome and the viking invasions either.... It was a major cultural achievement certainly but not unique in European medieval history .
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Post by cato on Nov 9, 2021 21:07:27 GMT
well anyway, another policy i want to pursue is reducing every single anglican to poverty; in order to destroy the legacy of the protestent assendency Have you read any Irish history after 1690? Curious to know are you a Catholic?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 9, 2021 22:14:09 GMT
Connacht, I now believe you are simply a troll trying to wind people up. I won't be interacting with you anymore.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 9, 2021 23:48:16 GMT
yes I am a catholic; but I am an in all things pro Irish before anything else; I am no troll; I will freely admit I am willing to engage in things I would never ever start if someone else did them first; the radical discrimination against british people and anglicans is always, belive it or not, less harsh then what they did to us for centuries; remember we are the majority and the native inhabitents of this land; (as for changing demographics, the immigrants are not anglo-saxons or members of the anglican church); the centuries of wrongs committed against ireland need to be righted and payback given; if current anglicans and british people want to escape responsibility; they should immediately volutarily return absolutely everything they have gained from those crimes, which is a lot; my opinions are definitly an odd mix for sure
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Post by Séamus on Nov 10, 2021 3:47:50 GMT
I am not talking about the IRA specifically, Iam simply refering to things like demolition of monuments to british figures This might be a good place to ask for opinions about something I've wondered about for a while: Tomorrow Dennis Hutchings, a former British soldier, will be put to rest at 80. He died while on trial for a 1970s killing (Pat Cunningham,27) in Northern Ireland that he claimed to be innocent of. I've noticed that British conservatives, Catholics included, are very critical of these trials of former troops who are accused of killing protesters and the the likes during the troubles, bearing in mind that most IRA members from the same era are under an amnesty since the Good Friday Agreement. Are opinions on this varied... Does it depend on Right-Left spectrum, nationality, objective opinion on the North's status... Whatever other factors?...fol the doh fol the day
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 10, 2021 4:03:47 GMT
I believe every single one of those soldiers should be tried for their crimes; the IRA are fundementally desperate people who turn to violent extremism because they feel they have no other choice; the british soldiers are not; and the truly innocent will not be convicted in a trial; due process is there to sort the guilty from the inocent
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Post by Séamus on Nov 10, 2021 8:29:46 GMT
I believe every single one of those soldiers should be tried for their crimes; the IRA are fundementally desperate people who turn to violent extremism because they feel they have no other choice; the british soldiers are not; and the truly innocent will not be convicted in a trial; due process is there to sort the guilty from the inocent Thankyou. Was interested in the various views.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 10, 2021 9:02:28 GMT
I don't think your views are radical, but an odd fantasy to put it nicely! What would be Radical would be for you as an individual to learn Irish fluently, play Irish instruments /sports, marry an Irish lady and have 10 Irish speaking children that love Ireland and their Catholic Faith. That would be a slap in the face of modernity and Anglo American Culture. To do this you would have to "make your damn bed"!
(Trying help you if you)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 10, 2021 9:18:46 GMT
I am not talking about the IRA specifically, Iam simply refering to things like demolition of monuments to british figures This might be a good place to ask for opinions about something I've wondered about for a while: Tomorrow Dennis Hutchings, a former British soldier, will be put to rest at 80. He died while on trial for a 1970s killing (Pat Cunningham,27) in Northern Ireland that he claimed to be innocent of. I've noticed that British conservatives, Catholics included, are very critical of these trials of former troops who are accused of killing protesters and the the likes during the troubles, bearing in mind that most IRA members from the same era are under an amnesty since the Good Friday Agreement. Are opinions on this varied... Does it depend on Right-Left spectrum, nationality, objective opinion on the North's status... Whatever other factors?...fol the doh fol the day I tend to agree with the British conservatives on this. If there was an amnesty after the Troubles, it doesn't make a lot of sense for British soldiers to be exempted from that amnesty. I do understand the pain and anger of the relatives, though, so I generally refrain from commenting.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 10, 2021 10:03:43 GMT
I don't think your views are radical, but an odd fantasy to put it nicely! What would be Radical would be for you as an individual to learn Irish fluently, play Irish instruments /sports, marry an Irish lady and have 10 Irish speaking children that love Ireland and their Catholic Faith. That would be a slap in the face of modernity and Anglo American Culture. To do this you would have to "make your damn bed"! (Trying help you)
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Post by cato on Nov 10, 2021 11:55:27 GMT
I believe every single one of those soldiers should be tried for their crimes; the IRA are fundementally desperate people who turn to violent extremism because they feel they have no other choice; the british soldiers are not; and the truly innocent will not be convicted in a trial; due process is there to sort the guilty from the inocent Utter tripe. There was always a choice in the 1970s. It was called the SDLP which was a peaceful natuonalist constitutional alternative which grew out of the civil rights movement of the 1960s. The provos were aligned with a Marxist worldview and wanted a 32 County socialist state. Martin mc Guinness in the 1970s bombed the hell out of his own Derry City to start a people's revolution by causing economic misery to catholics. One third of all murdered catholics in the troubles (around 400 people) were killed by the IRA. Those are real flesh and blood people murdered by their "defenders".
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Post by cato on Nov 10, 2021 12:02:19 GMT
I am not talking about the IRA specifically, Iam simply refering to things like demolition of monuments to british figures This might be a good place to ask for opinions about something I've wondered about for a while: Tomorrow Dennis Hutchings, a former British soldier, will be put to rest at 80. He died while on trial for a 1970s killing (Pat Cunningham,27) in Northern Ireland that he claimed to be innocent of. I've noticed that British conservatives, Catholics included, are very critical of these trials of former troops who are accused of killing protesters and the the likes during the troubles, bearing in mind that most IRA members from the same era are under an amnesty since the Good Friday Agreement. Are opinions on this varied... Does it depend on Right-Left spectrum, nationality, objective opinion on the North's status... Whatever other factors?...fol the doh fol the day I believe we should have had a truth commission were people would have had a chance to come forward and reveal their crimes for a pardon. Its imperfect but sometimes you need to wipe the slate clean and start anew. The Cumann na Gael government in the free State declared a general amnesty for civil war crimes which I think was a wise but imperfect decision. I also think we shouldn't be prosecuting people so long after events when memories are frail and evidence may be lost. I would hold the same views about the current prosecuting of minor bureaucratic officials in holocaust trials which strikes me as vindictive.Some escape justice. In this world.
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