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Post by cato on Nov 10, 2021 12:11:33 GMT
I don't think your views are radical, but an odd fantasy to put it nicely! What would be Radical would be for you as an individual to learn Irish fluently, play Irish instruments /sports, marry an Irish lady and have 10 Irish speaking children that love Ireland and their Catholic Faith. That would be a slap in the face of modernity and Anglo American Culture. To do this you would have to "make your damn bed"! (Trying help you) I have a close relation who is becoming more right wing in his old age not all due to my prompting alas. He has 5 children one of which he was urged to abort by doctors as that child had an ailment making him unlikely to survive birth. I am now that little boys godfather and he's a happy joyfulled 3 year old. His wife carried their child during our compassionate Repeal referendum but never once did they complain or contemplate an easy way out. Having children and passing on tradition and Christianity is the most radical , conservative thing in the world.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Nov 10, 2021 14:17:21 GMT
I have a close relation who is becoming more right wing in his old age not all due to my prompting alas. He has 5 children one of which he was urged to abort by doctors as that child had an ailment making him unlikely to survive birth. I am now that little boys godfather and he's a happy joyfulled 3 year old. His wife carried their child during our compassionate Repeal referendum but never once did they complain or contemplate an easy way out. Having children and passing on tradition and Christianity is the most radical , conservative thing in the world. "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." GK Chesterton It is important to understand that we are not going against the crowd just to be radical or different. What we have received, what has been entrusted to us is far more precious than what the world has to offer
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Post by Séamus on Nov 11, 2021 8:13:22 GMT
I believe every single one of those soldiers should be tried for their crimes; the IRA are fundementally desperate people who turn to violent extremism because they feel they have no other choice; the british soldiers are not; and the truly innocent will not be convicted in a trial; due process is there to sort the guilty from the inocent Utter tripe. There was always a choice in the 1970s. It was called the SDLP which was a peaceful natuonalist constitutional alternative which grew out of the civil rights movement of the 1960s. The provos were aligned with a Marxist worldview and wanted a 32 County socialist state. Martin mc Guinness in the 1970s bombed the hell out of his own Derry City to start a people's revolution by causing economic misery to catholics. One third of all murdered catholics in the troubles (around 400 people) were killed by the IRA. Those are real flesh and blood people murdered by their "defenders". I think it's probably fair to mention (in parentheses of course) one observation: the Widdecombes,etc, mention IRA members, 'terrorists' in their terminologies, but we're being objective here, walking free under amnesty, but no mention is made of the UDF/UDAs and so forth, also responsible for killing their own at times, who in a sense should have had even less reason to exist, providing the mighty British army and local police were doing their jobs, and must of whom, I'm sure, are walking free also.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 11, 2021 9:25:43 GMT
Utter tripe. There was always a choice in the 1970s. It was called the SDLP which was a peaceful natuonalist constitutional alternative which grew out of the civil rights movement of the 1960s. The provos were aligned with a Marxist worldview and wanted a 32 County socialist state. Martin mc Guinness in the 1970s bombed the hell out of his own Derry City to start a people's revolution by causing economic misery to catholics. One third of all murdered catholics in the troubles (around 400 people) were killed by the IRA. Those are real flesh and blood people murdered by their "defenders". I think it's probably fair to mention (in parentheses of course) one observation: the Widdecombes,etc, mention IRA members, 'terrorists' in their terminologies, but we're being objective here, walking free under amnesty, but no mention is made of the UDF/UDAs and so forth, also responsible for killing their own at times, who in a sense should have had even less reason to exist, providing the mighty British army and local police were doing their jobs, and must of whom, I'm sure, are walking free also. When I was younger, I viewed the IRA with complete disdain and contempt as out-and-out murderers. I still believe they are murderers, just as abortion is murder, but I've come to think that people in the Republic had a certain luxury in being so sanctimonious about the violence. If you read the life story of someone like Bobby Sands, you see that he is someone who would have lived a perfectly ordinary life in most circumstances, who actually tried to avoid getting drawn into the conflict for a considerable time. The IRA would not have had the support base that made their campaign possible if there wasn't something seriously wrong in the society. The same is true of the unionists, and indeed of the British soldiers. It's touching to read just how young most of the British soldiers involved in the Troubles were-- very often teenagers who had no idea where the next attack was coming from. It was a horrible situation. Understanding that doesn't justify any of the murder or maiming or terror, though.
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Post by cato on Nov 11, 2021 10:35:46 GMT
When I was younger, I viewed the IRA with complete disdain and contempt as out-and-out murderers. I still believe they are murderers, just as abortion is murder, but I've come to think that people in the Republic had a certain luxury in being so sanctimonious about the violence. If you read the life story of someone like Bobby Sands, you see that he is someone who would have lived a perfectly ordinary life in most circumstances, who actually tried to avoid getting drawn into the conflict for a considerable time.
The IRA would not have had the support base that made their campaign possible if there wasn't something seriously wrong in the society. The same is true of the unionists, and indeed of the British soldiers. It's touching to read just how young most of the British soldiers involved in the Troubles were-- very often teenagers who had no idea where the next attack was coming from.
It was a horrible situation. Understanding that doesn't justify any of the murder or maiming or terror, though.[/quote]
I was rather stupidly taken in by a lot of Republican propaganda as a young man and was even a fan of the literary works of Gerry Adams! I recall with shame trying to minimise the depravity of the Enniskillen slaughter to family which was not my finest moment.
I lived quite close to the border and spent many summers as a child in the North and there was always a sense it was Irish but also it was a place apart. Even Northern Catholicism is different from the variety a few miles away.
I think there were/are three toxic ideologies all competing and living off each other in the North.1) Orange loyalism which is conditionally loyal to Britian as long as Britian backs them. They had their own paramilitaries and were often psychopathic butchers. Sometimes literally in their torture Chambers. The story of the Shankill butchers is terrifying inhuman depravity. It has notions of religious and racial superiority.
2) There was an element of British imperial anti Irish arrogance at play too. At times they display gross insensitivity and lack of knowledge and treat Ireland as a plaything. The declaration in the 1990s they had no strategic interest in Iteland was groundbreaking historically in my view and led to my change of view on the struggle. Their military and police have acted outside the law on occasion but not on the scale of the war of Independence.
3) Finally there is toxic Republicanism. There is religious sectarianism among some Republicans contrary to the myths they peddle. I don't think it's possible to be both pro the unity of all Irishmen regardless of creed and be in favour of killing them to achieve that unity. The reason why I rant more about the IRA and Co. is they are the self appointed defenders of my community and have heaped the most shame on it during this terrible horrible time in our islands history.
I omitted mainstream Nationalism, unionism and the non aligned movements for brevity purposes.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 17, 2021 9:34:58 GMT
I read "The Street" by Gerry Adams, a collection of short stories set in Belfast during the Troubles. It was quite good. There was even one story with a fairly sympathetic portrayal of a unionist, who is allowed to make some non-strawman points.
And as little as I like Adams, especially for his social agenda, I think we have to respect his role in the Peace Process. Getting the IRA to buy into it was obviously a huge task. Of course, it would be better if there had never been a need for a Peace Process.
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Post by cato on Nov 17, 2021 13:22:04 GMT
I read "The Street" by Gerry Adams, a collection of short stories set in Belfast during the Troubles. It was quite good. There was even one story with a fairly sympathetic portrayal of a unionist, who is allowed to make some non-strawman points. And as little as I like Adams, especially for his social agenda, I think we have to respect his role in the Peace Process. Getting the IRA to buy into it was obviously a huge task. Of course, it would be better if there had never been a need for a Peace Process. Unlike most democratic politicians Gerry Adams had a direct personal role in conducting the War process for over 30 years too. There were several opportunities when he could have stopped killing earlier. The end of violence is welcome but it's the basic normal way of life in modern civilised societies since 1945 at least and not some unusual achievement.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 18, 2021 20:03:20 GMT
geuss who uses the most violence in this; the british military; having uniforms and badges does not make violence more acceptable
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Post by cato on Nov 18, 2021 21:13:19 GMT
geuss who uses the most violence in this; the british military; having uniforms and badges does not make violence more acceptable Instead of guessing you could research on line or read Liam Kennedy's book Who is responsible for the Troubles? The British army/UDR/ RUC were responsible for 10% of all deaths in the troubles. Loyalists killed around 30%. Republicans killed the lion's share you ll be surprised to learn, over 2000 deaths. 60% would seem to be the clear majority in most people's eyes.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 24, 2021 18:37:27 GMT
geuss who uses the most violence in this; the british military; having uniforms and badges does not make violence more acceptable Instead of guessing you could research on line or read Liam Kennedy's book Who is responsible for the Troubles? The British army/UDR/ RUC were responsible for 10% of all deaths in the troubles. Loyalists killed around 30%. Republicans killed the lion's share you ll be surprised to learn, over 2000 deaths. 60% would seem to be the clear majority in most people's eyes. look at it in broader perspective; who sent the invading army in the first place? do you really want to argue that people who no right to defend themselves against an unwanted foreign army that has committed crime after crime against them including genocides, for centuries? look at the death toll in that perspective
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Post by cato on Nov 24, 2021 19:59:32 GMT
look at it in broader perspective; who sent the invading army in the first place? do you really want to argue that people who no right to defend themselves against an unwanted foreign army that has committed crime after crime against them including genocides, for centuries? look at the death toll in that perspective[/quote]
Switching the goal posts when it doesn't suit your prejudices isn't a good look. I suspect you wholeheartedly approve of the above campaign and only lament it stopped before final victory?
I don't think the Provos based their mandate on resisting the Anglo Normans or the papal mandate to civilise Gaelic Ireland.
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Post by connacht4096 on Nov 24, 2021 20:17:56 GMT
look at it in broader perspective; who sent the invading army in the first place? do you really want to argue that people who no right to defend themselves against an unwanted foreign army that has committed crime after crime against them including genocides, for centuries? look at the death toll in that perspective Switching the goal posts when it doesn't suit your prejudices isn't a good look. I suspect you wholeheartedly approve of the above campaign and only lament it stopped before final victory? I don't think the Provos based their mandate on resisting the Anglo Normans or the papal mandate to civilise Gaelic Ireland. [/quote] I was pointing out the big picture from the beggining, i didn't move the goalposts, i pointed out that you misinterpreted my statement about where they were, something has not moved because you have more accurate information about its location; besides do you deny that those british soldiers (who i should note signed up for military service); would not be in northern ireland were it not for that invasion? it is unfortunite if the IRA kills civlians, but IRA killings of government officials and soldiers are kind of what those people at the very least signed up to accept the risk of
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Post by cato on Nov 24, 2021 21:13:18 GMT
look at it in broader perspective; who sent the invading army in the first place? do you really want to argue that people who no right to defend themselves against an unwanted foreign army that has committed crime after crime against them including genocides, for centuries? look at the death toll in that perspective Switching the goal posts when it doesn't suit your prejudices isn't a good look. I suspect you wholeheartedly approve of the above campaign and only lament it stopped before final victory? I don't think the Provos based their mandate on resisting the Anglo Normans or the papal mandate to civilise Gaelic Ireland. I was pointing out the big picture from the beggining, i didn't move the goalposts, i pointed out that you misinterpreted my statement about where they were, something has not moved because you have more accurate information about its location; besides do you deny that those british soldiers (who i should note signed up for military service); would not be in northern ireland were it not for that invasion? it is unfortunite if the IRA kills civlians, but IRA killings of government officials and soldiers are kind of what those people at the very least signed up to accept the risk When did the Irish people or government declare war on Britian?
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Post by cato on Nov 24, 2021 21:22:57 GMT
Connacht 4596 I have never doubted anyone's good faith here but I am making an exception for you and will no longer be engaging with you via these exchanges. I suspect you have been trolling here and I regret wasting my time interacting with you.
We tolerate a wide variety of views here but I would suggest you may find one of the numerous Sinn Fein supporting sites more congenial to your outlook.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 24, 2021 21:40:28 GMT
The reason I have decided Connacht is a troll is because he times his outrageous comments so strategically. He knows what he's doing. His contributions become fairly reasonable for a sustained amount of time and then he says something completely over the top. It's pretty much the same approach Sacha Baron Cohen uses with Ali G and Borat.
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